What's with the need for gadgets?

[Jeff]

Don't get defensive.  I've viewed your log section on the site and they appeared to be well kept and I assumed accurate.  

Being new at this, I thought maybe you knew something I didn't about how to keep track of your mileage and all.  That's all.

Jeff

[Ryan]

It could be possible that the gadgets do affect your performance, though. If you are so focused on your gadgets that it takes focus away from your training, it will affect you. I have seen this happen with all kinds of gadgets.

As the Coe quote offered by magpie states, you only have so much focus to go around. If you put your focus somewhere other than running, that's taking focus away from running. I'm not going to judge you if you choose to do that but realize that taking focus away from your training will likely lead to performance detriment.

Again, I'm not concerned with whether anyone wants to strap gadgets on to themselves unless the use of those gadgets endangers me, which is a whole other topic. What I'm trying to understand are the statements of NEED. Some people seem to seriously believe they NEED these things and I have yet to hear reasoning for this feeling of NEED.

BTW: Not getting defensive. I feel no need to be defensive in this thread.

[RandyS]

Ryan,

I think, of the 3 items you listed, music is the one we most often hear people refer to as being 'NEEDED' to run. .

Most who say this don't run, as you say, for recreation or sport. The goal is weight lose or weight control, or to lower blood pressure or some other fitness goal, maybe cross training for soccer season. Whatever the peripheral goal; its not running in and of itself. They would be just as unhappy spending the same amount of time on a stepper, or rowing machine, or whatever device.

Not everyone that runs does it for the enjoyment of running. I'm not saying that everyone wearing a headset fits this category but probably many that, as you say, 'NEED' music do.

The GPS and HRM are not items I hear people often say they NEED.

These I classify more as things people WANT or LIKE when they run. For them, and I include myself in that, it adds to the running experience.

Some people may become obsessive with these things and that may cause some of the focus problems you refer to. Most users I think are not that caught up with the device but for those that are you have a valid point.

On most runs I only glance at the GPS when I am in the last mile or so, or not until I reach the driveway at the end. Now, after the run, I can review my splits, compare them to how I felt at each part of the run, know my overall pace compared to that same run over the past few weeks. Having this information took no focus away while I was running since I never even looked at the watch (they automatically store the split information, so in that way they require LESS focus than a standard running watch).

Are there times when I do watch the GPS more during a run. Sure, tonight I am doing intervals. I could drive to the track but now I have another option. If I choose, and I will tonight, I can just head out the door and after a warm up do near perfect 1 mile intervals at the planned pace. Do I need to stare at the watch for the entire interval, no, usually I look only when I feel I am close to the end of each mile and based on that feedback adjust for the next one.

Does everyone need a GPS to do this. No, many people can do it by feel, or estimate it, or don't even care about time at all. Others like to know this information with more precision.

Simply using GPS or HRM does'nt indicate anything about how focused someone is. Heck, I could be out for an easy run in nothing but shorts and shoes but still be focused on a problem at work. In fact I often solve problems from work while doing easy runs. Every run does'nt require 100% focus for me to gain the benefit intended for the workout.

At least when it comes to easy or recovery runs. In fact I wonder how much enjoyment running can be for someone who maintains 100% focus on every run.

Last night, I got home late, it was dark and I had an easy 10 miles on my schedule. I went out and took in the sights and sounds of the night. I focused very little on the run, just made sure I was'nt pushing things to hard (I did intervals the day before and need to do so again tonight, so it was supposed to be an easy run).

I often got lost in thoughts of upcoming projects at work, or things I wanted to do over the weekend, the miles rolled by without me noticing.

When I had gone 5 miles I turned around. When I got home my GPS said 9.77 miles. I turned it off and went inside. Nope, did'nt run around my driveway to get to exactly 10. Wearing it had no impact on my run but later that night I could check my splits.

Turns out I averaged 8:38, from an 8:52 slow mile to a 8:23 fast one. My goal pace for an easy run is 8:40 so I was pretty close. And its all in my log book, on my laptop, along with every other run and split going back to December. It all happens automatically, never needed to look at the watch or touch it until I get home (if I choose not to look). Plug it into its charger and the information loads into the log book by itself.

fwiw: The log shows your pace, over any interval you choose, and your elevation too. All this is displayed on both graphs and numerically and is maintained automatically. Some people like this information, others don't. I do like it and see no harm in having it.

So, if you don't let it become an obsession, I think its the greatest running accessory you can buy.

Randy

[magpie]

What I meant in my final comment was: Wearing a GPS watch will not make me (or you) a better or worse runner than without it. Overall the post was otherwise not directly specifically at you.

Well, to point out the obvious, nothing in my posts in this thread has really been about you or me.  Some of us were merely exchanging general observations and some laughs.  I have no earthly idea why you have chosen to make it personal or take issue with it at all.

I am a mid-pack runner, with or without the GPS, and my potential is not related to what gadgets I use while training.

No kidding.  Said gadgets also have no impact on how close you will come to your own potential.

And Bikila, Shorter, Rodgers and Salazar are elite runners; and would be with or without a GPS watch.

The point was that they did not need a GPS watch (or HRM or headphones) to reach their potentials -- and that this fact would transcend ability level.

A runner is not going to become better or worse simply by virtue of putting on (or taking off) a GPS watch.

I think I knew that.  I have indicated, implicitly or otherwise, nothing to the contrary.

So how many ways do I have to say it. I wear a GPS because I like it and want the information it provided me. I like to know how far I run, exactly how far I run.

Great, but I cannot see how this would be of any concern to me or has anything to do with what I have stated regarding said devices in this thread.

For those that are not interested in the accuracy a GPS provides; great. I don't post questions about why they don't NEED more accuracy. I like that information and again I do not see how having that information changes anything.

I agree, having said information does not change a damn thing.  This is why I deem such devices which provide feedback that does not lead to improved performance to be ultimately useless for serious runners.

[magpie]

Wearing a GPS watch will not make me (or you) a better or worse runner than without it.

A runner is not going to become better or worse simply by virtue of putting on (or taking off) a GPS watch.

I think its the greatest running accessory you can buy.

:roll:

[RandyS]

magpie,

it should be obvious. You are a 'serious' runner and I am not.

Or maybe your posts make you feel like a serious runner. Why waste your valuable time discussing anything with 'recreational' runners using useless devices.

Shouldn’t you be out training or doing some 'serious' running?

Of course, all those 'serious' running coaches, with published books (something I suspect you have never done) never fail to discuss heart rate and proper training pace. Guess they must not be targeting the 'serious' runner with these books.

One of those elite runners from your prior post, Alberto Salazar, in his book 'Guide to Road Racing: Championship Advice for Faster Times from 5K to Marathon" recommends both pace/distance monitors (they didn’t have gps units when it was published) and heart rate monitors. Throughout the book he discusses proper heart rate for different workouts as well as proper pace.

He must not be a 'serious' a runner to discuss these useless gadgets.

I could say the same for many books on my shelf but I picked this one since you put his name on your list of elite runners.

So for now I will continue to use my useless gadgets, perhaps someday I will stop and join the ranks of the 'serious' runners like you.

Randy

[magpie]

I apparently knew essentially nothing of you or your intentions.  I thought that you were the one who had asked about potential in another thread, but I was not paying close attention and could be wrong.  I do not know why I bothered replying to your post except that I thought it would be unseemly to ignore someone who had addressed me seemingly in earnest, but perhaps you would prefer that I do so.  You have not made clear what my running could possibly have to do with any of this, or what business it could be of yours.  Seems a rather petty point to try to make.

Of course, all those 'serious' running [coaches], with published books (something I suspect you have never done) never fail to discuss heart rate and proper training pace. Guess they must not be targeting the 'serious' runner with these books.

No, I have not published a book, though it is entirely uncertain what that could have to do with anything.  Are you trying to imply that only those who have been published know what they are talking about?  I am also unsure what you would consider a "serious running coach" so that makes it difficult to really refute that which you are trying to claim.  I can attest that nothing I have read from Lydiard, Bowerman, Dellinger, etc. has mentioned heart rate or iron-clad training pace.  Your final guess is may indeed be correct, though.  

One of those elite runners from your prior post, Alberto Salazar, in his book 'Guide to Road Racing: Championship Advice for Faster Times from 5K to Marathon" recommends both pace/distance monitors (they [didn't] have gps units when it was published) and heart rate monitors. Throughout the book he discusses proper [heart] rate for different workouts as well as pace.

"They" also did not have heart rate monitors or GPS units when Salazar was running his best.  Doubtful that he would have been better by using either.  There is no refuting that, obviously, pace can be key in certain kinds of workouts -- but at the same time, a GPS or distance monitor is certainly not necessary in that regard.  Regardless, it should have been apparent that I held Salazar up to be considered an example of an athlete who doubtlessly reached his full potential -- however, I would be loath to point to him as a successful coach.  Another formerly superb runner, Jeff Galloway, who never took an intentional walk break while qualifying for the Olympics or in his own best marathon performances, recommends walk breaks for everyone, from back-packer to world class, as an avenue of improvement in marathon performance.  In summary, just because a former running great puts it in print does not mean that I would be gullible enough to swallow it as gospel.  I consider advice upon the merits that support it, not the mere fact that someone with a name from his competitive days and a book to sell suggests it.  

He must not be a 'serious' a runner to discuss these useless gadgets.

Well, if you say so.  I do not think that he used them as a runner, though, since none of them were available at that time.

All that aside, this thread, including my posts, pertained to those who feel that their running success and enjoyment depends upon these devices.  If that does not include you -- I believe that you did state that you do not NEED them and in fact could get along quite well without them -- then why has your input here been so personal and fervent?  It simply does not follow.  Also realize that nothing that has followed my initial two posts in this thread has refuted anything stated within them.  

Finally, I honestly could not care less about how you or anyone else chooses to train and race -- I do like to see people enjoying exceeding and doing well, but the end result does not affect me in any real way.

[r-at-work]

okay all... play nice  :wink:

I'm old & slow, but I work as hard as I can at this and I would like to think that some of the gadget might help a bit... no illisions of instant improvement... but I'm still learning the basics, like pace & effort...

I have used a HRM (husband gave it to me one Christmas)... what I discovered was that on my usual lunch time loop I was slowing down towards the end... I hadn't noticed it till I wore the HRM and noticed that between mile 3 and 4 my HR dropped significantly... the effort felt the same... this was during a base building phase, not a targeted workout, so I tried just picking up the pace on that last mile to keep my HR up in the range I thought it should be...

for awhile I was wearing it once a week to see if I was at the right pace... guess that during that month or so (I was coming back from a slight injury) I was getting in better shape without realizing it...

I don't wear it more often because I do find it distracting.. usually don't even wear a watch... on the other hand sometimes it's fun to see improvement or just to make a correction in pace or effort... I look forward to a time when I KNOW how I'm doing without them...
-r

[RandyS]

Here is an example of how my gps watch was used this week and why I find it useful.

I began speed workouts this week. For the next few weeks I will do 6 x 1 mile repeats @ 7:00 pace, with 1 mile recovery jogs. Depending on the long run distance for that week I do 1 or 2 of these per week.

I did two speed workouts this week; the first on Tuesday and the second on Thursday. My last speed workout was back in October, since then I have been running base with some tempo runs and hill workouts.

For the Tuesday workout I set my gps watch to record splits at 1 mile intervals. I also set it to ‘beep’ at each split. I began running and each time the watch ‘beeped’ I would alternate a repeat with a recovery jog. I didn’t look at the watch or use it to establish my pace. I did peek at the ‘split’ distance every once in a while to see how close I was to beginning the next repeat (or how close to the end of a repeat), but didn’t take note of the time or pace I was running.

I was interested in seeing how well I could estimate my pace and see if my perceived pace was close to my actual pace. After the run, while I was getting cleaned up, the watch downloaded the run into the log-book software. I was shocked at the results.

My planned pace, 7:00 mpm based on a pace calculator at McMillan running for a 3:30 marathoner, was not even close to what I actually ran.

My splits were 6:27, 6:35, 6:41, 6:32, 6:46 and 6:37.

These are not even close to what I should be doing in this workout. I managed to collect this information with no action on my part during the run since it was handled automatically.

Seeing how far off I was on Tuesday I changed my tactics on Thursday. I set the watch the same as on Tuesday but I monitored my pace while running each interval and adjusted based on the feedback.

All my splits last night were in the range of 6:47 to 7:06. Much closer to my planned pace and after the first few I found I needed to refer to the watch less and less to hit my goal. Thanks to the feedback I was beginning to get a ‘feel’ for the pace I was trying to run.

I found the gps very helpful when doing these workouts. Last year when I last ran intervals I didn’t have a gps watch and I would not have been able to do this workout like I did.

I would have had to go to the track, or run on a measured route. Since both of these workouts were done at night I wanted to run closer to home, on well lit streets instead of the dark track at the HS.

The point of this post is not to suggest that the gps watch made possible something I could not have done some other way. But it helped me do the workout the way I choose to do it.

I see no down-side here, its no more or less a tool than a standard runners watch. Which pretty much all runners, serious to recreational, wear? I plan to wear it in my marathon in May instead of my old watch. Not to monitor my progress (the course has mile markers), nor to regulate my pace, but simply to take advantage of the ‘automatic’ split feature so that I can review my race later that day. Much easier than remembering to press the ‘split’ button on my regular watch (or remembering to stop it when I cross the finish, something I have forgotten to do in 5 prior marathons).

In fact it was easier to review my workouts this week because of the auto split then it was with my old watch where I had to remember to press the ‘split’ button after each repeat.

Most people using these tools see them as nothing more than the useful tools they are.

Randy

[Ryan]

Most people using these tools see them as nothing more than the useful tools they are.

Once again, those would not be the people I was referring to in the original post. Once again, I was referring to those who explicitly state a NEED for such gadgets. People (yes, people training for races, not just trying to drop a few pounds) who act as if it's impossible to run wherever they feel like it without a GPS or to run at all without headphones or to run easy without a HRM. If they stated WANT instead of NEED, I would never have started this thread. As for being useful tools, maybe so, maybe not. I see mixed signals on that topic within your posts in this thread even. However, that was not my original point of this thread.

[r-at-work]

yeah, I think the 'original' idea was that  people who don't really want to be out there running HAVE TO use their headphones as a crutch... but if that is what it takes for them to get going at least  they have found something...

some days I need a little "magic" usually I tell my 11 year old he has to ride his bike with me, he's REALLY a distraction and not much of a gadget...

I just wish I had a watch that allowed me to run faster than I can :wink:

[magpie]

I would like to think that some of the gadget might help a bit... no illisions of instant improvement...  I look forward to a time when I KNOW how I'm doing without them...

Just from what you have posted here, my sense is that you already did know before you ever used the HRM, and that you have somehow become convinced to give the feedback from HRM more credence than it really deserves.

[Woody]

You having fun Bud?   I like your enthusiasm and dedication .  If your having fun keep doing what works for you

Woody

[Karl]

RandyS,

I am the CEO of Garmin and I would like to offer you a position with our company as the North American Sales Manager.  There is no need for you to relocate for this position.  We expect you to work from a SOHO (small Office Home Office).  The benefits, bonus program and compensation package are outstanding.....

All jokes aside I am new to this sport and have enjoyed reading the messages herein.  They have clearly answered my question: Is a GPS a good tool?  I will buy one tonight.

[Andrew A.]

Yes, a long-dormant topic -- I figured this had been broached previously here.  The latest does not surprise me at all, given what I have learned about media and memes and their contribution to ever-shorter attention spans: iPods can make you stupider.