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[denton]

..are u getting at diminishing returns or progression? there is a difference..sorta......u can't progress unless u continue to cause the body to be stressed, adapt, get stressed, adapt, etc...... that can be done by increasing mileage and/or increasing intensity.....running the same thing day in day out will only get u fit, but it won't awlays mean getting faster...even lydiard would say that in the buldup u stress and de stress by running 90mins one day and 60 the next in that pattern....on the other side i also know that snell's buildup for 1964 involved a change in intensity of running 7 min miles one day and 6 min miles the next......there is noting wrong with doing some intesnity in a buildup but that intensity should be low egs tempo and fartlek runs

egs buildup week

mon: 50-60min easy
tues 4 mile (20-25min) tempo run
wed: 50-60min easy
thurs: 1 h20
fri: 50-60 easy
Sat: 20-30 min fartlek (egs alternating 3min harder with 2min medium)
sun: 90-2hr min run
(sat and sun could also look like this sat: 70mins  sun 90-2 hrs mins with 'tempo fartlek' paces of 2min-3min-10min-3min-2min-1min in the middle with 3mins back at off day run pace)


u will notice there is one med long run, long run and some more aerobic (tempo fartlek)oriented sessions mixed in with some easier recovery days..as i say lydiard with a twist.....IMHO some semblance of speed sesions needs to be done all yr or your mechanics decrease and focus wains (and increasing chance of injury when increase the intensity).....just keeps u honest

[GTF]

Questions for Denton:
How frequently (maximum) should (alactic) strides be done?  Is there a realistic probability or expectation that doing them daily (or even 4-6 times a week) during the base phase might be problematic if one is healthyfor a usually healthy runner?

[denton]

..anaerobic alactic....combination of science and experience says....twics per week (but I also believe in doing drills as well in there for form)....ratioanle is this.....anaerobic alactic is primarily neuromuscular therefore it has an impct on the central nervous system, but unlike energy systems oriented training, it takes 48-72 hrs for full recovery (of course his also dpends on the intensity of the anaerobic alactic work) of the CNS vs the 36-48 for glycogen/muscular regeneration.....so once every 3 days or twice per week.....I've got a great setup from steve ovett's old coach on 'speed drills' they did...very simple, but the organization was very good....but in his schdeules I believe they only did this sessions once per week after a LT oriented session.....i know for myself i tend to do 2 sessions per week of of 6 x short hard hills around 10-15 sec in a 2min set

[Ryan]

Denton, thanks for the great answer to GTF's question. This is also something I've been wondering. I've seen the idea of doing strides during base phase proposed before but never a complete explanation outside of "keep doing them during base phase". Interesting thoughts, definitely worth giving a try, especially for a speed challenged guy like me. As was mentioned earlier, always look for those ways to tweak the plan. This will be one of my ways to tweak the training for 2007.

[GTF]

Apologies for the poor writing above and the feedback is absolutely appreciated.

Any thoughts on your race last weekend?

[denton]

...thoughts on my race..why yes ......^*%$^*$*^%$(%*)%^&%^(%^&(^%

...IMHO the main reason for doing strides isn't necessarily for speed as much as it is for form......i find that the base stuff makes u 'lazy' when it comes to efficiency and the strides help maintain neuromuscular from/memory of what it is to run fast..... I would also say the CNS is an often overlooked area of distance running, yet in sprinting it's of the utmost importance

[Manwich56]

i find that the base stuff makes u 'lazy' when it comes to efficiency and the strides help maintain neuromuscular from/memory of what it is to run fast

I agree with you that strides is good  for form.  I do notice that during the base phase of training I start to lose that speed in my legs a little bit.  But I don't worry about to much because it really only takes 1 or 2 speed workouts later to instantly get it all back.  Usually coming off of my base building when I do my first speed workout my legs get sore.  Then two days later I notice the spike in my legs is back.  I remember my sophomore year in high school I came back into the season with loads of slow twitch muscle fibers from base building.  I could hardly or I couldn't even do 70-71 second 400 meter repeats.  Just a few speed workouts into the early season I was hitting 59-62 second 400 meter repeats no problem.  And I also notice an enhancement of efficiency in my easy day runs and long runs.  So its pretty much expected to lose some spike in your legs when building your base but it doesn't bother me because it doesn't take long to get it all back when moving to phase 2.  And I also notice an enhancement in my legs just from running on hills.  The next day after running a hilly run I notice a feel of more efficient running on flat terrain.

[denton]

..manwich..I would agree 100% but would add that my concern with not doing the 'pure speed' strides for even a fairly short period of time may lead to injury due to poor mechanics.... (hence why i do strides, from drills and some reasonably intense speedier workouts all yr egs fartleks)...your observation would be very similar to mine and i would say that it's due to increased power output due to better mechanics/efficiency.  I also find the same when i do my first week or two of structured intervals.....a week or so later everything gets quicker although i really don't think i am any fitter.....

[Mark]

WOW! this is a great thread. The light are finally on! I have been doing long, slow distance, (that "S" will change to steady). I did No strides and very little speed at all, during my base training. I now understand why it is not working for me and not much fun. I also see why when I go into hills or speed work it always results in some minor injuies, which slow progress. I will add stides and fartleks, etc to my base training.

I am not sure who DENTON is but great advice and explanation of why to put it all into context.

Mark

[GTF]

He's a lumberjack and he's okay . . . 

[denton]

..does this mean I wear women's undies....not that there is anything wrong with that.....

Here would be some of the classic (IMHO) sessions that can be done in base phase that one would call speedier:
1) monfartlek, but keep up the medium paced parts
2) tempo fartleks: 20-40mins of 3mins hard-2min medium, but once again keep up the medium parts (if 20mins more vo2 max....if 40 more tempo/LT)
3) acceleration tempos..egs 2-3 x 15 mins off 1-2mins but go 5min below tempo-5mins at tempo pace-5mins above tempo pace (egs 82/83% MHR, 85%, 87/88%)
4) 30-50 min acceleration run where u increase the pace every 5 mins (an old dellinger session where u start at a quick off day pace and then increase the pace by about 10 sec per mile every 5mins till you are running faster than tempo the last 10mins or so.....if doing it for 50mins...obviously if doing it for 30 you might go out a little quicker and pick it up a little more every 5mins...or pick it up every 3mins???)
5) 10km  pace done as 8-10 x 3mins or 60 sec....note 10km pace...not 5km pace...so very controlled....
6) 6-10 x 3mins off 30sec but done at tempo pace
7) 20mins at tempo plus another 10-20 mins off 2min rest
my fav tempo style run of 3-5 2km or 7mins at tempo pace and 1km or 4mins that is 30 sec slower

you'll notice that in the change of pace stuff i say keep up the medium paced stuff in the base phase as it decreases the high end intesnity, therefore more aerobic