Advice on reaching marathon goals

[RandyS]

My goal this year was to run a marathon under 3:30 (BQ time). Last year I ran a 3:40 in my 2nd marathon. I trained harder this year but only managed to improve my best to 3:37.

This year is behind me and in a week or so I will begin training for next years races. Once again I plan to run a spring and fall marathon; each off of about 6 months of training. I am willing to work hard to reach my goal and don't want to waste the next 6 months fooling myself again.

Can some of the more experienced runners advice me if my planned training schedule, assuming I follow it as outlined, can get me to the 3:30.

My schedule is simple:

Mon: 5 mile easy (8:40 pace)
Tue: 6 mile tempo (7:25 pace)
Wed: 10 mile easy (8:40 pace)
Thu: 6 mile quality (see schedule below)
Fri: 5 mile easy (8:40 pace)
Sat: 9 mile marathon pace (8:00 pace)
Sun: 14-24 mile long steady run (see schedule below)

The Thusday quality run depends on where in the schedule I am. Before the 18 week build up to the race I do a tempo run. Then I do 8 weeks of hill training followed by 4 weeks of long intervals (1600m), then 4 weeks of short intervals (800m) and end with 2 weeks of tempo runs before the 2 week taper starts.

The paces for these runs are: tempo (7:40), 1600m (7:00), 800m (3:20)

The Sunday long run stay at 14 miles prior to the 18 week build up then follows this pattern:

16.18,16,18,16,20,16,20,16,22,16,22,16,24,16,24,16,13,Race

On the weeks where I cut back to 16 miles I do a full 9 mile mp on Saturday. On the longer weeks I only do a portion at mp and the rest at an easy pace.

This is the same schedule that got me to 3:40 a year ago. After each race I add milage and/or increase the training paces with the assumption it will get me to the finish faster. Each cycle lasts 6 months and following each race I resume training in a week or so. The evolution of my training schedule follows:

I had 2 less long runs, took Fridays off, ran 15 fewer miles a week (40-50 mpw) overall. Results 3:40 Oct 02, Mystic.

Added 2 more long runs, and increased weekly milage by 5 (45-55 mpw). Results 3:37 May 03, Long Island.

Added Friday easy run (50-60 mpw), added hill training. Results 3:38 Oct 03, Mystic.

This time around I increased the Wed run from 5  to 10 miles (55-65 mpw). Also dropped training pace by 5-10 sec/mile for most runs. Results: Thats the question! I plan to run Long Island in May 04!

The changes I have made over the last 12 months have not produced much of a payback (net 3:00 min improvment). I now run 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year so I am commited to working hard to reach my goals. I need advice on how to best use my training time. The best thing I can say about the last 12 months of training is that I am much more resistant to injury. In fact while training harder than ever I basically have been injury free. My recovery time after races is also much quicker. I usually resume easy/short distance runs the day after the race and feel little or no soreness by day 4.

So, what would you do different? I would hate to train another 6 months and gain nothing (besides the joy of running, which is nice but I still want to race better times)

Randy

[Ryan]

You do roughly the same schedule every week? No periodization at all? Have you ever taken time to understand the concepts of periodization? Consider the following schedule as an example of periodization.

Months 1-3: Base building. Focus on aerobic mileage. Don't worry about pace, just log the miles. Strides a couple of times a week would be good. If you're feeling good and feel like going faster, do an impromptu tempo run. Nothing structured or planned, though.
Month 4: Strength. Focus on hill workouts in this phase. Once or even twice a week if you can handle it, do some hill repeats. 1/4-1/2 mile is a good distance. Once a week, you could do a tempo run but don't overload on workouts. In this phase, as well as the next, cut your mileage back some if you need to in order to get your workouts in.
Months 5-6: Race prep. This is the time to hit the track. The traditional approach is start with long repeats, like mile repeats, and gradually work down to shorter ones like 200s or 400s. Some newer approaches have you working in the other direction. I've gone both ways with success. Of course, the final 1-3 weeks would be your taper.

A great resource: http://www.fitnesssports.com/lyd_clinic_guide/lydpg2.html

[Woody]

And you can't go wrong ,  This got me under 3:00 hours when I was running just under 19 for a 5k.  I did every day on this schedule to a "T" and never tapered for a race or changed one thing it is very strong and has four different cycles.   I did some hard studying after my Chicago this year and started to put some pieces to the puzzle together.     One thing I found out was periodization does work!   DUH!    Also you have to have a goal race and train for that goal or distance.    You can't taper for a smaller race if it cuts into your main goal training.    Train for the distance and stick to it.  I did it in 2001 and it is only marathon where I overachieved.      Check it out and read the whole article

http://www.runningtimes.com/issues/01julaug/marathon.htm



Good Luck,

Woody

[pski visits]

Randy,  first I'm am slow but I think I can help.  Make Mon 30 to 40 minutes easy.  Tue do 2 miles at tempo pace, try to work that pace down, like to 7:15 to 7:20 pace.  Wed do your 10 easy.  Thu, forget 6 quality, go get another 16 any way it comes.  Fri 30 to 40 min, sleepwalk if necessary just move.  Sat do a 3 4 or 5 mile tempo (note all tempo running preceeded and followed by 2 mi wups or cdns, so total, 7 to 9 miles.  Sun, long runs  16-18 no longer at this stage.  6 months of training?  Hit htis for the first 10 weeks.  Also, those Sat tempos are slightly slower cause they are longer, so start trying 7:35- 7:40 pace then slowly bring them in line with the Tue temp pace as you go.  Do ONE of your Wed Thu or Sun runs over hilly terrain for added strength.  You'll be tired the first few weeks then you'll just adapt and get used to it.  Want to work, you've come to the right place.      PSKI

[RandyS]

Ryan,

Actually I thought I was already following your advice! I have read your many posts on the importance of phases and attempted to introduce it into my schedule. Thats why Thursdays run varies throughout the schedule.

It begins with tempo runs that last until I am 18 weeks out. Then I do 8 weeks of hill training (starting at lsd pace and building up to tempo pace for 1/4 to 3/4 of a mile). Then 4 weeks of 1600m intervals followed by 4 weeks of 800m intervals. The last 2 weeks leading to the race I do tempo's.

Its true that the other 6 days a week remain unchanged from week to week (besides the varying distance of the Sunday long run). I thought by changing the focus of the Thursday long run as I entered each phase was what you recommend.

Woody,

I like the information at this site and it reminded me that now, before I am too far into this training cycle, would be an excellent time to re-read 'Advanced Marathoning' by P & D (they are the authors of this web page). Its been 2 years since I last read this book and I rememeber it as one of the better books on the subject.

Pski,

The problem with me adding additional mid-week long runs is that they are much harder to fit into my work and family schedule. On the weekends I can get up early and run as much as I choose but during the week I can't fit in as much time. Thats why 2 of the weekday runs are recovery runs and 2 are quality runs. These are all an hour or less.

I increased Wed to 10 miles because I saw the need for more mid-week milage but even that required me to arrange to go to work early on Wed so I can get home in time to run this workout before dark. During the summer when it gets dark later it will be easier to increase mid-week milage and I may take your advice an push Wed to 16 miles. That won't help me for the spring race but may give me an adge next fall.

Randy

[Zeke]

Randy,

I agree with Ryan and the periodization.  Try to look online or find a book on the subject.  Just alternating your Thursday run is not periodization.  When I see you write stuff like "in a week or so I will begin training for next year's races" even though you've just run 2 marathons in the last month, it doesn't sound like periodization.  I don't think you are giving your body a chance to recovery - even though you may feel fine.  Sounds like it's time to train smarter, not harder.

Here's what my triathlon coach told me after completing Ironman Wisconsin, which was my last race of the year.  

"Since this was your last event of the season, it's time to de-train.  It is important to loose fitness in order to build to higher level of fitness for the next year.  You want to be a new athlete with renewed focus, rather than the same athlete trying to hold onto to fitness you have created in the past.  It is a time to let your body rest, recover and get anxious about training again.  Pay special attention to diet in order to get your body all the essential nutrients in order to build your immune system, gain strength and maintain your weight.  After about of month of this recovery de-training period you will be ready to start your off-season fitness for 2-3 months and then follow it with some base building."

As for specific training, there are lots of great programs out there.  You already know about Pfitz's book, re-reading it is a great idea.  Also try reading Daniels' Running Formula and check out these links.

Lydiard
http://www.geocities.com/gprrc/lydiard.html

Beck
http://www.runningtimes.com/issues/99julaug/artmar.htm

I agree with Pski regarding the mid-week long run.  Even if you have to run in the dark, try to bump that up to 12-15 miles.  I always tell people I knew I was fit when I could get in 2 hours on a Wed night and not even think twice about it.  I know running in the dark sucks, but it is doable.  I live in MN with icy roads and I know it's possible, you'll get used to it.  I try to train with a group of guys for that run.  It's my one night away from my family a week.  I don't think that's too much to ask.  Also, don't worry about your training pace in these conditions, since you have to slow down to be safe.  Another option is to purchase a treadmill.  Yes, they can suck, but they can really help in the winter, when it comes to darkness, icy roads, snow storms, -20 temps, and even just getting a run in while watching the kids.
   
Another observation, it seems like you have a lot (maybe too many) runs over 20.  Two 22s and two 24s seems like an awful lot to me.  I don't think I've ever seen a program with that many.  I'd say cut back on some of those long runs and instead focus on increasing your overall weekly mileage.  I tend to think there are levels of miles/week, each separated by about 15 mpw, each taking you a step further in the marathon.  For example, with 40 mpw you can finish a marathon, 55 mpw you'll do okay, 70 mpw is solid, 85 and 100 mpw those are my next steps.  You may want to add some two-a-days to your program to help you get there.  Just painstakingly easy 30-45 min runs a few times a week.

If all else fails, you could always hire a coach.  Try shooting Joe Rubio an email at joe@vsathletics.com if you're interested.  I believe he charges $40 per month.

I'll end my ramblings with one a quote that comes to mind "if you want something you've never had before you have to do things you've never done before."

[Ryan]

Randy, I do think your plan shows the beginnings of periodization but true periodization is a wholesale approach. If you read through the link I gave (I know, it's virtually a whole book online but it's good reading) you'll see that each phase drives the whole week. Not just varying one day but varying the whole week.

I also like Pski's idea of getting in the midweek long run. Is there really a problem with running in the dark? I've run in the dark everywhere from extremely rural areas to small towns to the suburbs to big cities. I've never had any significant problems. If you're already running 10 miles on Wednesday night, all you need is an extra 30 minutes for another 3-4 miles and that could do a lot for your training.

Now that I check the topic review, I see Zeke beat me to both points. Oh well, a little extra reinforcement never hurt anyone. ;-)

[Zeke]

I forgot to mention strides.  Lydiard does in his article, saying we should do them 52 weeks a year.  He says it's the one way to get faster without any increase in fitness.

[RandyS]

Late next year I will be able to make big changes in my weekday milage. The real problem is that I work days and my wife works nights. We have 2 young kids (5 and 11) at home so I need to get home from my run before she leaves for work.

Next year the older kid will be able to keep an eye on her younger sister and I can run nights without restriction. Until then I have to live with the weekday restrictions on my time. I know I have a high concentration of milage on the weekend and I plan to address that when I have more flexability.

I have also condsidered adding weekday runs in the morning before work of 4-5 miles, at an easy pace, to increase overall weekly milage. Then my weekend milage will not be such a high percentage of overall miles.

Zeke,

When I say resume training I am talking about running easy milage, no quality runs and no long runs over 14 miles. This is just to get my milage up to 55 mpw before starting the schedule I described above.

Randy

[Ryan]

I actually remember having a discussion with Double about watching the kids. He mentioned something he does when he's in a pinch. He says his kids are old enough to know when they need help from him so he actually goes out and does laps around the block if he needs to get a run in and his wife isn't home. He's going by the house every minute give or take, so if anything happens his kids know they can step out the front door and he will be by shortly.

Of course, this may not work for every family. You would have to have a lot of confidence in the maturity of your kids and there's the issue of convincing your wife that this would be a viable alternative. I guess Double and his wife are good with it (either that or I hope she doesn't read this ;-)) but I could see where it may not fly with some people.

Maybe Double can shed some more light on exactly how this idea works (I probably got parts of it wrong but I think I got the general idea down) as well as any other "tricks of the trade" that he may have come up with.

[pski visits]

Randys,  I too have kids, 10 and 8.  I use the DD approach, run around the block or up and down the street continuously.  Yeah they know, there goes dad every 4 minutes or so.  If they need something they come out and ask.  They even join me on their bikes in summer for some longer mile loops which puts me by every 8 minutes or so.  Sometimes I slow it down and they jog a loop with me.  I've done 22 milers in this fashion.  Also, they get a little taste of trust and independence.  Good luck, PSKI