Should I still run Mystic?

[Zeke]

I wonder if Dan also does.

I don't know Dan that well, but I imagine he has or would - probably not here though.

He'd probably say 2:47:57 is closer to his goal (2:43 - 2:47) than Ryan's DNF was to his.  He might even mention something about how Ryan's listening to his body didn't seem to work out very well and say that if Ryan was wearing a HRM he would have known he was going too hard too early.

But who knows, Cameron was wearing a HRM and although he said he was "too hot", he didn't back off the pace.

[cameron]

DM's chip time was 2:47:57...not bad guesswork IMHO.  (although not quite +/- 2 min of 2:45)

[cameron]

But who knows, Cameron was wearing a HRM and although he said he was "too hot", he didn't back off the pace.

Sometimes you gotta redline to see what's in the tank... :lol:

[Woody]

Cameron--

Well- I'm training for the CIM - and I was sick right before that 1/2 marathon about two weeks ago -- so I had to take some time off and with that I still need some 2:30 hour runs at a certain HR -- so I decided to run Chicago and get off at 20.   Well since I backed it off about 30 secs per mile --it felt real easy so I pulled the move --which is why it's hard to train in races and kept on going cause It felt like a sunday long run and it was a nice day and I was enjoying it.    But like I said to Randy -- I've missed a good work session that was planned for Wed and just ran easy  because I went 26.2 --instead of 20. So in hind sight probably wouldn't do it again -- Give me your e-mail and I'll send you some info from the race.      HR thing doesn't go too well over here -- so let me know.  

On another note --- Man where has all the Love gone?    Just because theres a difference of opinion and some banter-   were gonna bash on Dan?     Man he ran a gusty race and Stayed right on course at 6:10 pace until 21- He tells people what his plans are and goes after it -- he runs very gusty and fearless and will always finish the race no matter what!  He showed that at Boston - walking two miles and finishing even though he was injured.    I have the big time respect for him .    

He stayed right where he should of His HR and paced matched up perfectly-  He just needed a few more longer runs at MP+30-40 secs and he would have finished it off at 2:42.   We know what he needs and he will make adjustments for Boston and come close to breaking 2:40.  

Randy Sorry to steal your thread -- I was really trying to help your decision and pass on my experience --And it gets pulled out into something else.     It's too bad -- were all in this marathon together and should be trying to help each other and a guy gets bashed for running 2:47 -- While running 2:42 pace through 21.     What's that all about ?  

That's why you don't see me on here anymore - I scanned that HR monitor thread and I really had some good info for the people who are into it.   But I didn't want to get into the banter War -- Don't need that anymore -- Just trying to get faster like everybody else .  

Peace Bro!

Woody

[danm]

Well my wife is gonna freak if I told her I posted here....but oh well.

Whoever the anon poster is come out and show yerself you coward.

Not to bash anyone but Randy I think I would tend to agree that you should not run this race if you are teetering on the brink of injury.  Woody gave a good example of how good intentions run amok when he continued on and finished the Chi marathon.  His legs are beat up and now he has to miss a few crucial days.

However I definitely understand the need to get away, spend some time with fellow runners and can't blame you for wanting a little of that.

Chi marathon was a fun day although the weather was too hot for me (58 degrees at the start).  But I ran according to the plan my coach put forth all of which was based on some important workouts leading up to the marathon.

Ironically, I chose a per mile pace to stick to and figured I would watch my HR to make sure it didn't go out of the zone (160-164).  From mile 3 I never saw my HR stray from 159-162 range as I clicked off 6:09-6:11's.

By 22 I knew I was running out of fuel and the legs began to turn to wood.  But I chose to gut it out because I knew a sub-2:50 was easily in the bag and I was running for a 5 man team whom I did not want to let down.  

After going over the race with my coach we know precisely what we need to do to rectify the problems I encountered at Chicago.  Besides deciding a little too late in the game to run it and leaving myself only about 3 solid months of training, as a high percentage Fast Twitch type runner, fueling late in a marathon will always be a problem I may face.

So as Woody stated, lots more running at the M+20 - M+40 pace, more than one 20 miler (which is all I got in for Chicago) and upping the mileage as a whole, I should be able to lower my per-mile pace for Boston and kick some royal butt.

And you know what is the coolest thing (Cameron, this goes for you too), I have Boston Qualifier to-boot!!!!!!!  (and probably back up in the first corral)

Dan - be good.

[Double]

Danno - My intentions are to go to Boston and bust 2:40 as well.  As usual, I will use a home built plan based on mind melding the aerobic/anaerobic systems into an overdrive to the tenth power scenario.  See the future, be the future.  We should do at least one half together so we can sharpen the iron.

[danm]

Sounds good.  Perhaps you would be willing to venture down to Northern IL around March 16th and run the infamously hilly and oh-so-Boston-like March Madness half in wonderful Cary, IL.

Unlike you I will be marching to the Hadd-drums with the other select few who have sold their souls to the system.

Ten-hut!

Dan

[Ryan]

wow...didn't read that thread...guess i should lay off the HRM-speak... :lol:

You only need to lay off insisting elite athletes are racing with them without evidence to back up the claim and insisting that all methods other than HRM training are inferior.

FWIW, I have received a few e-mails by people who thought I was the anon poster. Let me be perfectly clear in saying that I was not. I do not post anonymously in any running forum, especially on my own website. While Dan may have fallen slightly short of his stated target, that can happen to any of us for various reasons. I know what having a bad race is all about, I have had many of them in my nearly 15 years of running competitively. I know better than to criticize one aspect of someone's race when a race doesn't go well for that person. It would be easy for someone to claim that a HRM would have made all the difference for me at Lakefront but I know more about what happened and what I was thinking than anyone else and I know it would have made no difference at all. I ignored every red flag my body was throwing in my face, why would I have listened to a HRM telling me exactly the same thing as what I was already ignoring? Likewise, I'm not going to try to suggest that I have any idea why Dan didn't hit 2:45 or what he could have done differently when he knows those things much better than me. The results speak for themselves and, this year, Dan is the better marathoner than me. No disrespect to him but I hope to change that next year as I continue my comeback from last year's ordeal but, for now, that's where we stand. I commend him on a race that was run much more intelligently than I ran my attempt and I wish him well in his quest for sub-2:40.

As for goals, I respect everyone's decision to do what they wish with their goals but I have chosen to subscribe to Mark Nenow and Coach Conway's theory. Choose a specific goal and keep it to yourself. I find that I am much more confident and relaxed and, as a result, I run better when only a close circle of people for whom I hold a great deal of trust and respect know the specifics of my goals.

[Wong Fei Hung]

If you want to catch a rat,
You do not need a fancy cat.

[Adam]

I normally just lurk and observe, but think the following two knuckleheads need to be set straight:

Woody:
  Get real and hop off Dan's sack, he invited the criticism when he started it in another thread by bashing Ryan and others here over a simple difference of opinion.  He dug his own grave right there and he lost respect BIG TIME with an idiotic and classless move like that.

Dan:
  I have a pretty good idea who the "coward" is, but will knowing his or her identity make the criticisms any less true?  Obviously what he or she  had to say hits home if you're concerned with who he or she is and obviously he or she doesn't give a crap what your personal opinion of his or her online "bravery".  It doesn't get much more self-evident, you talked the talk but couldn't walk the walk.  Can't you be a man and accept criticism without making it some kind of personal thing?  By the way, I seem to remember reading in August or September that your goal was to go under 2:40, I guess your confidence diminished and so did your goal.  Also if you honestly believe what you say about your muscle fiber makeup, then why aren't you out running sub 2:00 800m and sub 4:15 mile races rather than toil in vain to better your marathon PR?  Seems like you're trying to fight nature, and that's a foolish move by someone who knows as much about the science of the sport as you say you do.  Just think about it and maybe think about your excuses more before you put them out there.

Good running to all.

Back to lurking,
Adam

[danm]

Man I hate thinking about the fact that I am stooping to your level here but here she goes.

I have already run sub 2 for 800 and 4:22 road mile in my late 30's.  (turn 41 in a month) while that was fun stuff it isn't what challenges me.  

You're right about wanting to break 2:40.  Still the goal and I am hoping to do it at Boston.  But if you have run a few steps in your life, and I hate to presume anything here about posters, I am assuming you have, even the best intentions can get sidelined with an injury.

I am not a complainer, I take what comes.  But I was realistic about my goal time and needed to amend it as i approached the race date.  Once I was pretty confidant of where I was, I was able to say within a few minutes.  A little too warm of weather and a monstrous headwind for the final 3 miles kept me not reaching the goal to the second.  But hey, that's marathoning.

The key with these forums is to try and add value to those who are seeking knowledge.  When someone so blatantly disregards a training tool as being not needed yet claims to be all knowing, that is not good information.  Go read 76 Toughest Workouts and checkout what some of them do...might see a few HRM workouts in there!

Dan

[Ryan]

When someone so blatantly disregards a training tool as being not needed yet claims to be all knowing, that is not good information.

Likewise with one who claims that a tool that may or may not be useful to some people is required for maximal performance and claims that elites are using them at the Olympics when all evidence offered suggests such claims are false.

By the way, has anyone here claimed to be all knowing? Has anyone stated that HRMs are never of any use to anyone? I don't remember such claims. If they have been made, I'd love to see references because my memory must be getting bad.

[danm]

Gee, it didn't take a wizard to see that coming.

[Zeke]

It doesn't get much more self-evident, you talked the talk but couldn't walk the walk.  

While I don't plan on wearing a HRM during a race anytime soon, this is the argument that doesn't make any sense to me.

Dan wore a HRM and missed his goal by like a minute.  Ryan ran by feel (and ignored all the "feelings" his body was sending him) and DNF'd.  Yet somehow Dan can't walk the walk.

I know this is Ryan's site and he's a good guy, but why not rip on "Mr. I run by feel" since it seems he had a far worse performance on race day?

[Ed 1]

If some one claims that another stated something and cannot prove it that should not be let go.  Misquoting some one purposefully is wrong.  Doing it by accident or by not reading through the entire post is a correctable wrong.  But in both cases an apology is warranted.  Ryan DNF ok big deal, that does not prove or disprove anything - people can ignore how they feel and they can ignore the HRM - you'll get the same results - trouble on the run.  

Let's keep things honest here - quotes should be proven.  If this is not done it will end up being just another sexed up, threat filled, lie spewing web site.