Author Topic: Runnerdude  (Read 14311 times)

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Offline Ed 1

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Runnerdude
« on: September 13, 2004, 08:07:13 AM »
Since I'm not a liberal or Kerry supporter and exercise my religion - I do not act like most so called compassionate liberals.  I am actually compassionate.  Making people reliable on the government is demeaning and unacceptable.  It states that the people are worthless and incappable.  Now some may be ill enough to be incappable but most are not.  And yes faith based initiatives are big.  Most of the food pantries are run by churches - free meals sites are run by churches.  Many clothing banks - places that give clothes free to clients like mine are run by churches.  Now a liberal or Kerry supporter would want to tax people create a huge beauracy that costs millions of dollars to run and then sell donated items for a low cost.  What is better?  

As a front line social worker that deals with menatlly ill people I see what liberal systems like Milwaukee county does to the indigent and the destitute.  It brings them down - makes them feel worthless and incappable.  But since you have no experience in this area except the crap that Senator Kerry is spewing out of his double sided mouth you really should not talk about it.  

If the hundreds of millions of tax dollars used to run Federal, State and County systems were cut back and filtered through private run non-profit agencies like mine - there would be more money used directly for these people.  Try to live on what they do - here in Wisconsin the combined Federal and State monies is only $620.00 - this is to cover all expenses -rent, utilities, food etc...  Meanwhile the County workers on average bring in about 600% of that.  Yes the government is the best - MY ASS.  The faith based is supported by the members of the churches not tax dollars and the people that work the kitchens, food pantries, shelters and clothing banks do not get paid - they volunteer.  That is just terrible isn't it poeple helping people because they care to.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline runnerdude

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Runnerdude
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2004, 02:20:29 PM »
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But since you have no experience in this area except the crap that Senator Kerry is spewing out of his double sided mouth you really should not talk about it.


you shouldn't presume to know what experience I have or don't have. I actually have worked in a church-sponsored soup kitchen before. Since you insist on making this some warped ideological debate, I'll share something that was told to me by one of the longtime soupkitchen managers and this is that 99% of the people he saw coming in for meals were homeless men until the mid to late 1980s when single mothers with kids began showing up for their only meal of the day. I guess those were Reagan's "welfare queens" living large! The other thing I noticed about the people helping out in the soupkitchen is that most of them were on the left and some of them came from wealthy backgrounds (they attended a private university and didn't need financial aid). This was when I realized that the democratic party is the party of compassion and SOLIDARITY! If maniacs like george bush had their way, people would starve to death just as they did during the great depression before FDR implemented our country's social safety net.
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Offline Ed 1

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Runnerdude
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2004, 06:21:32 AM »
As a good little liberal you have ignored all but one of my points and brought up ancient history just like the liberals are doing now.  (Viet Nam)  Your experience is from the 80's or so you said my east coast friend, my experience is NOW - Today's world.  Tell me does your party have any more forged documents to hand out yet?

Also, is it truly compassionate to make some one reliant upon the government and not help them help themselves?  Give some one a fish you feed them for a day - Teach them to fish you feed them for a life time.

Not to mention that the welfare system was set up so that the women could not be married and the children could not have their fathers living with them - great system.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline runnerdude

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Runnerdude
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2004, 09:13:28 AM »
Actually, I'm a big liberal and proud to be one that's what it means to see through your bs and expose you for the fascist tool that you are.

you state that your experience is about NOW, well then you should know that NOW there are about 45 million people (1 out of 6) in our country who don't have health insurance and 4 years ago that figure was 37 million people. That is a poor track record for the Bush administration.

As far as "making people reliant upon the government," we already are reliant upon it for our security. Do you have a problem with that too? And, as a matter of fact I do think it is more compassionate to have the government provide a minimum of social protection than to let the most destitute and disadvantaged members of society fend for themselves or depend on the possible kindness of strangers.

Your quote about the welfare system is totally warped, but I will say this: If it allows women and children to live away from their husbands and fathers because those husbands & fathers are abusive, then it's worth it.

Offline Ed 1

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Runnerdude
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2004, 09:59:45 AM »
So you are saying that all fathers of children in the welfare system are abusive?  That is such bull!!!!!  My Father worked for years in that Welfare system and stated that it was a very (he's a liberal) flawed system that did not allow women to be married and continue to receive welfare benefits.  

There is only one area that I want President Bush to change in and that is most definitely the issue of health care.  However, the democrats promised for eight years under President Clinton to fix the system and did not do that.  I have written to the President & asked for this issue to be addressed.  Obviously, jobs are no longer a worry considering the jobless rate is the lowest in decades and outlooks for job prospects are high as reported by some of the most well known temp agencies in the manufacturing industry.  

The idea of a National insurance program is wrong!  This exists in countries (loved by liberals) like France where the care is substandard and the people with money still go to private hospitals and get the best care.  This I learned from some one that worked at Harley Davidson and was in France for two years.  This is not the answer.  Bush's idea is good -give people more control and more money so that they choose lower cost care or doctors that charge less.  All consumers do this already with everything else that is purchased - prices will drop when people have the power to choose.  That is economic basics - the marketplace dictates the supply/demand and prices.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline Ryan

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Runnerdude
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2004, 10:29:05 AM »
I usually try to stay out of these discussions as I am definitely an independent and I get fed up with both the liberals labeling me a conservative who doesn't care about people and the conservatives labeling me a liberal who wants to create a socialist country. However, I'll throw something out here.

While I believe nobody should be dependant on our government, I also believe that the responsibility to assure that nobody who is making an honest effort is left behind. If we look at some recently released statistics, 22% of Milwaukee residents (just the city, not including suburbs) are, by government standards, living below the poverty rate. Some of these people are surely not trying to do better and hoping for a handout. These people, while being allowed enough to survive, should not be given a free handout just because they don't want to pull their own weight. However, there aren't 150,000-plus of these people in Milwaukee. Many of these people living in poverty are hard working people who have low paying jobs and don't have the skills or the resources to get the skills needed to get the jobs they need to support their families. In the interest of being a government that is truly concerned about all of its citizens, our government should step in to help these people. Offer them support while they get the training they need. Offer them ways to afford the training they need. Help them find the jobs needed to support their families. In short, help them help themselves. Don't offer free handouts for a lifetime but don't turn your back on them.

As for the welfare system, I don't think anyone supports the system that existed in Wisconsin for quite some time. However, the extremely flawed system that existed in Wisconsin was worlds apart from a safety net. I would hope that anyone from Wisconsin would realize that. A safety net is a good thing, the flawed beyond any hope for repair system that existed in Wisconsin is obviously not a good thing. What about the W2 program, though? Technically, it is a welfare program but it is one that places an emphasis on job training and placement.

As for health care, we definitely have something that is broken and I'm very unimpressed with Bush's record so far. I'm not thrilled with Kerry's ideas, although I need to look into them more, but Bush has had a chance to do something and the health care problem has escalated under his watch.

Offline Ed 1

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« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2004, 11:23:25 AM »
You are right about that Ryan - President Bush and President Clinton have had almost 12 years to do something about the health care yet we have nothing.  Senator Kerry's plan will cost about 1.5 TRILLION dollars in the next ten years and socialize health care.  This is a mistake.  Other countries like France and Germany have this and the care there is terrible except for those with money - they pay privately and forego the government payments and get the better care.  

What we need is the power to choose.  Just like when you choose a car to buy price is a major consideration - prices drop when there is competition.  Right now there is very little competition for health care dollars.  Another issue is that people go to se a doctor for the smallest somatic complaints - if they had to pay for that visit - they might not go.  Balance is needed though so that people will get care as needed.  But seeing the doctor because you sneeze once or twice is a problem.  

I would support a National insurance plan for catastrophic medical issues -such as cancer or other chronic expensive medical issues.  But I would not support a National insurance for all health care.  If we could see anybody at any time for anything and not pay a cent while doing it - the system will be greatly abused.  I pray that God guide's voters (me included) to make the right choice when the time comes to vote.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline runnerdude

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« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2004, 11:28:00 AM »
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So you are saying that all fathers of children in the welfare system are abusive?


of course not, and you know perfectly well that I didn't say or imply that. I can't speak for what exists or existed in Wisconsin. I will say that no system is perfect, but if the alternative is that women & kids have to stay with an abusive father because there is nowhere else for them to go, then that's not acceptable.

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the democrats promised for eight years under President Clinton to fix the system and did not do that


You are actually 1/2 correct. Bill handed the project off to his wife, who tried to push a proposal through congress and that proposal failed.

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The idea of a National insurance program is wrong!


Even if it's crafted in a way that is acceptable to a majority? You bring up the example of the French system - that is not health insurance, it is outright healthcare just like you received when you were in the army. I don't think that type of system would be appropriate in the US.

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prices will drop when people have the power to choose


this can be true, but have you asked yourself what the doctors & pharmaceutical companies might do if prices drop too much? If they can't make a decent living/profit, they'll find something else to do or produce less - that's also basic economics.

Offline runnerdude

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« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2004, 11:34:28 AM »
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there aren't 150,000-plus of these people in Milwaukee. Many of these people living in poverty are hard working people who have low paying jobs and don't have the skills or the resources to get the skills needed to get the jobs they need to support their families. In the interest of being a government that is truly concerned about all of its citizens, our government should step in to help these people. Offer them support while they get the training they need. Offer them ways to afford the training they need. Help them find the jobs needed to support their families. In short, help them help themselves.


this is a shortcoming that both sides are guilty of. They should have done something like this when NAFTA went into effect, but they didn't. They could have done something like this when they noticed that jobs were being outsourced overseas, but they didn't.

Offline Ed 1

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« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2004, 11:43:59 AM »
After all of the harsh words and anger a common desire is found.  We both wish all could have health care, we wish that health care was affordable and effective, we do not wish for a National healthcare system and we want it yesterday.  

I believe that this can only be done by doing many many things.  There is no majic bullet that will solve the issue.  Limit law suits, let Americans get their drugs from Canada if they choose to (this will eventually force Canada's prices to climb until they are nearly even with the American prices), increase personal responsibility for costs of choices made (e.g. going to a posh hospital versus a less posh one where the care is the same its just not as comfortable), change the medical malpractice insurance system, shrink the size of the Government's involvement in the health care system (not its scope).  This is just a tiny start of a list that the sum will be greater than the parts.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline Ryan

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« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2004, 12:05:45 PM »
One note about lawsuits and medical malpractice. I know the Bush administration likes to point to this and attack Edwards on this but I saw the numbers recently and they showed that the lawsuits and malpractice accounted for less than 2% of medical costs. At best, your $1000 bill is now down to $980 if we limit this and then medical professionals are not held as liable for mistakes or shortcuts they make.

While I'm all for limiting the ability to bring frivilous suits, if a medical professional was truly negligible, we are talking about someone potentially ruining or even ending someone else's life. Let's be careful about how far we go so we make sure everyone is held accountable for their actions and the severity of the penalty still matches the severity of the damage caused. After all, even if we change nothing, we still have 98% of our costs that we can look through to find where savings could be reasonably made.

Offline Ed 1

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Runnerdude
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2004, 12:51:40 PM »
Did you know that malpractice insurance is over a million dollars a year - cut that down and doctors can cut their rates.  Doctors can hardly afford to pay their student loans due to the high medical malpractice insurance premiums.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline runnerdude

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« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2004, 01:54:54 PM »
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I saw the numbers recently and they showed that the lawsuits and malpractice accounted for less than 2% of medical costs.


do you know whether that figure includes hospitals' insurance costs? I am guessing that it doesn't and that it would be a little higher if they were, maybe 4-5%.

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Did you know that malpractice insurance is over a million dollars a year


not for each doctor, it isn't.

The real reasons for the increasing costs of healthcare are 1) medical technology (MRI machines for example) and 2) the burden of treating those without insurance - this bumps up the per procedure costs for everyone else.

Offline Ryan

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Runnerdude
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2004, 06:13:27 PM »
Quote from: "Ed 1"
Did you know that malpractice insurance is over a million dollars a year - cut that down and doctors can cut their rates.


The 2% quote I saw included malpractice insurance and legal fees. That means completely get rid of malpractice insurance and you are cutting rates by no more than 2%. Out of curiosity, who is paying over a million dollars per year for malpractice insurance? I don't think I want to go there, they must have a lot of claims filed against them.

Offline Ed 1

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« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2004, 06:37:47 AM »
There is another major cost that Runnerdude alluded to and that is Medicade otherwise known as T-19.  This is for those that have very little in assets (under $2,000 total) and a gross income under $700.00 per month.  That alone is not the burden we face.  It is from the amount of no-shows that this population has.  This costs the medical industry much more money than they can claim against the State for reimbursement - which of course is passed on to us.  As hard as we try to get people to their appointments if some one is actively psychotic it can be nearly impossible.  For people with fixed delusions and paranoia it is also very difficult to get routine care done thus allowing severe issues to occur costing much more than the routine care would have.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

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