Author Topic: Runnerdude  (Read 14307 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« on: September 13, 2004, 08:07:13 AM »
Since I'm not a liberal or Kerry supporter and exercise my religion - I do not act like most so called compassionate liberals.  I am actually compassionate.  Making people reliable on the government is demeaning and unacceptable.  It states that the people are worthless and incappable.  Now some may be ill enough to be incappable but most are not.  And yes faith based initiatives are big.  Most of the food pantries are run by churches - free meals sites are run by churches.  Many clothing banks - places that give clothes free to clients like mine are run by churches.  Now a liberal or Kerry supporter would want to tax people create a huge beauracy that costs millions of dollars to run and then sell donated items for a low cost.  What is better?  

As a front line social worker that deals with menatlly ill people I see what liberal systems like Milwaukee county does to the indigent and the destitute.  It brings them down - makes them feel worthless and incappable.  But since you have no experience in this area except the crap that Senator Kerry is spewing out of his double sided mouth you really should not talk about it.  

If the hundreds of millions of tax dollars used to run Federal, State and County systems were cut back and filtered through private run non-profit agencies like mine - there would be more money used directly for these people.  Try to live on what they do - here in Wisconsin the combined Federal and State monies is only $620.00 - this is to cover all expenses -rent, utilities, food etc...  Meanwhile the County workers on average bring in about 600% of that.  Yes the government is the best - MY ASS.  The faith based is supported by the members of the churches not tax dollars and the people that work the kitchens, food pantries, shelters and clothing banks do not get paid - they volunteer.  That is just terrible isn't it poeple helping people because they care to.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline runnerdude

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 124
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2004, 02:20:29 PM »
Quote
But since you have no experience in this area except the crap that Senator Kerry is spewing out of his double sided mouth you really should not talk about it.


you shouldn't presume to know what experience I have or don't have. I actually have worked in a church-sponsored soup kitchen before. Since you insist on making this some warped ideological debate, I'll share something that was told to me by one of the longtime soupkitchen managers and this is that 99% of the people he saw coming in for meals were homeless men until the mid to late 1980s when single mothers with kids began showing up for their only meal of the day. I guess those were Reagan's "welfare queens" living large! The other thing I noticed about the people helping out in the soupkitchen is that most of them were on the left and some of them came from wealthy backgrounds (they attended a private university and didn't need financial aid). This was when I realized that the democratic party is the party of compassion and SOLIDARITY! If maniacs like george bush had their way, people would starve to death just as they did during the great depression before FDR implemented our country's social safety net.
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush
Run against Bush

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2004, 06:21:32 AM »
As a good little liberal you have ignored all but one of my points and brought up ancient history just like the liberals are doing now.  (Viet Nam)  Your experience is from the 80's or so you said my east coast friend, my experience is NOW - Today's world.  Tell me does your party have any more forged documents to hand out yet?

Also, is it truly compassionate to make some one reliant upon the government and not help them help themselves?  Give some one a fish you feed them for a day - Teach them to fish you feed them for a life time.

Not to mention that the welfare system was set up so that the women could not be married and the children could not have their fathers living with them - great system.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline runnerdude

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 124
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2004, 09:13:28 AM »
Actually, I'm a big liberal and proud to be one that's what it means to see through your bs and expose you for the fascist tool that you are.

you state that your experience is about NOW, well then you should know that NOW there are about 45 million people (1 out of 6) in our country who don't have health insurance and 4 years ago that figure was 37 million people. That is a poor track record for the Bush administration.

As far as "making people reliant upon the government," we already are reliant upon it for our security. Do you have a problem with that too? And, as a matter of fact I do think it is more compassionate to have the government provide a minimum of social protection than to let the most destitute and disadvantaged members of society fend for themselves or depend on the possible kindness of strangers.

Your quote about the welfare system is totally warped, but I will say this: If it allows women and children to live away from their husbands and fathers because those husbands & fathers are abusive, then it's worth it.

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2004, 09:59:45 AM »
So you are saying that all fathers of children in the welfare system are abusive?  That is such bull!!!!!  My Father worked for years in that Welfare system and stated that it was a very (he's a liberal) flawed system that did not allow women to be married and continue to receive welfare benefits.  

There is only one area that I want President Bush to change in and that is most definitely the issue of health care.  However, the democrats promised for eight years under President Clinton to fix the system and did not do that.  I have written to the President & asked for this issue to be addressed.  Obviously, jobs are no longer a worry considering the jobless rate is the lowest in decades and outlooks for job prospects are high as reported by some of the most well known temp agencies in the manufacturing industry.  

The idea of a National insurance program is wrong!  This exists in countries (loved by liberals) like France where the care is substandard and the people with money still go to private hospitals and get the best care.  This I learned from some one that worked at Harley Davidson and was in France for two years.  This is not the answer.  Bush's idea is good -give people more control and more money so that they choose lower cost care or doctors that charge less.  All consumers do this already with everything else that is purchased - prices will drop when people have the power to choose.  That is economic basics - the marketplace dictates the supply/demand and prices.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline Ryan

  • Just another crazy runner
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8247
  • Karma: 11
  • 2011 Walleye Run
    • Hillrunner.com
Runnerdude
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2004, 10:29:05 AM »
I usually try to stay out of these discussions as I am definitely an independent and I get fed up with both the liberals labeling me a conservative who doesn't care about people and the conservatives labeling me a liberal who wants to create a socialist country. However, I'll throw something out here.

While I believe nobody should be dependant on our government, I also believe that the responsibility to assure that nobody who is making an honest effort is left behind. If we look at some recently released statistics, 22% of Milwaukee residents (just the city, not including suburbs) are, by government standards, living below the poverty rate. Some of these people are surely not trying to do better and hoping for a handout. These people, while being allowed enough to survive, should not be given a free handout just because they don't want to pull their own weight. However, there aren't 150,000-plus of these people in Milwaukee. Many of these people living in poverty are hard working people who have low paying jobs and don't have the skills or the resources to get the skills needed to get the jobs they need to support their families. In the interest of being a government that is truly concerned about all of its citizens, our government should step in to help these people. Offer them support while they get the training they need. Offer them ways to afford the training they need. Help them find the jobs needed to support their families. In short, help them help themselves. Don't offer free handouts for a lifetime but don't turn your back on them.

As for the welfare system, I don't think anyone supports the system that existed in Wisconsin for quite some time. However, the extremely flawed system that existed in Wisconsin was worlds apart from a safety net. I would hope that anyone from Wisconsin would realize that. A safety net is a good thing, the flawed beyond any hope for repair system that existed in Wisconsin is obviously not a good thing. What about the W2 program, though? Technically, it is a welfare program but it is one that places an emphasis on job training and placement.

As for health care, we definitely have something that is broken and I'm very unimpressed with Bush's record so far. I'm not thrilled with Kerry's ideas, although I need to look into them more, but Bush has had a chance to do something and the health care problem has escalated under his watch.

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2004, 11:23:25 AM »
You are right about that Ryan - President Bush and President Clinton have had almost 12 years to do something about the health care yet we have nothing.  Senator Kerry's plan will cost about 1.5 TRILLION dollars in the next ten years and socialize health care.  This is a mistake.  Other countries like France and Germany have this and the care there is terrible except for those with money - they pay privately and forego the government payments and get the better care.  

What we need is the power to choose.  Just like when you choose a car to buy price is a major consideration - prices drop when there is competition.  Right now there is very little competition for health care dollars.  Another issue is that people go to se a doctor for the smallest somatic complaints - if they had to pay for that visit - they might not go.  Balance is needed though so that people will get care as needed.  But seeing the doctor because you sneeze once or twice is a problem.  

I would support a National insurance plan for catastrophic medical issues -such as cancer or other chronic expensive medical issues.  But I would not support a National insurance for all health care.  If we could see anybody at any time for anything and not pay a cent while doing it - the system will be greatly abused.  I pray that God guide's voters (me included) to make the right choice when the time comes to vote.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline runnerdude

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 124
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2004, 11:28:00 AM »
Quote
So you are saying that all fathers of children in the welfare system are abusive?


of course not, and you know perfectly well that I didn't say or imply that. I can't speak for what exists or existed in Wisconsin. I will say that no system is perfect, but if the alternative is that women & kids have to stay with an abusive father because there is nowhere else for them to go, then that's not acceptable.

Quote
the democrats promised for eight years under President Clinton to fix the system and did not do that


You are actually 1/2 correct. Bill handed the project off to his wife, who tried to push a proposal through congress and that proposal failed.

Quote
The idea of a National insurance program is wrong!


Even if it's crafted in a way that is acceptable to a majority? You bring up the example of the French system - that is not health insurance, it is outright healthcare just like you received when you were in the army. I don't think that type of system would be appropriate in the US.

Quote
prices will drop when people have the power to choose


this can be true, but have you asked yourself what the doctors & pharmaceutical companies might do if prices drop too much? If they can't make a decent living/profit, they'll find something else to do or produce less - that's also basic economics.

Offline runnerdude

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 124
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2004, 11:34:28 AM »
Quote
there aren't 150,000-plus of these people in Milwaukee. Many of these people living in poverty are hard working people who have low paying jobs and don't have the skills or the resources to get the skills needed to get the jobs they need to support their families. In the interest of being a government that is truly concerned about all of its citizens, our government should step in to help these people. Offer them support while they get the training they need. Offer them ways to afford the training they need. Help them find the jobs needed to support their families. In short, help them help themselves.


this is a shortcoming that both sides are guilty of. They should have done something like this when NAFTA went into effect, but they didn't. They could have done something like this when they noticed that jobs were being outsourced overseas, but they didn't.

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2004, 11:43:59 AM »
After all of the harsh words and anger a common desire is found.  We both wish all could have health care, we wish that health care was affordable and effective, we do not wish for a National healthcare system and we want it yesterday.  

I believe that this can only be done by doing many many things.  There is no majic bullet that will solve the issue.  Limit law suits, let Americans get their drugs from Canada if they choose to (this will eventually force Canada's prices to climb until they are nearly even with the American prices), increase personal responsibility for costs of choices made (e.g. going to a posh hospital versus a less posh one where the care is the same its just not as comfortable), change the medical malpractice insurance system, shrink the size of the Government's involvement in the health care system (not its scope).  This is just a tiny start of a list that the sum will be greater than the parts.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline Ryan

  • Just another crazy runner
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8247
  • Karma: 11
  • 2011 Walleye Run
    • Hillrunner.com
Runnerdude
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2004, 12:05:45 PM »
One note about lawsuits and medical malpractice. I know the Bush administration likes to point to this and attack Edwards on this but I saw the numbers recently and they showed that the lawsuits and malpractice accounted for less than 2% of medical costs. At best, your $1000 bill is now down to $980 if we limit this and then medical professionals are not held as liable for mistakes or shortcuts they make.

While I'm all for limiting the ability to bring frivilous suits, if a medical professional was truly negligible, we are talking about someone potentially ruining or even ending someone else's life. Let's be careful about how far we go so we make sure everyone is held accountable for their actions and the severity of the penalty still matches the severity of the damage caused. After all, even if we change nothing, we still have 98% of our costs that we can look through to find where savings could be reasonably made.

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2004, 12:51:40 PM »
Did you know that malpractice insurance is over a million dollars a year - cut that down and doctors can cut their rates.  Doctors can hardly afford to pay their student loans due to the high medical malpractice insurance premiums.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline runnerdude

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 124
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2004, 01:54:54 PM »
Quote
I saw the numbers recently and they showed that the lawsuits and malpractice accounted for less than 2% of medical costs.


do you know whether that figure includes hospitals' insurance costs? I am guessing that it doesn't and that it would be a little higher if they were, maybe 4-5%.

Quote
Did you know that malpractice insurance is over a million dollars a year


not for each doctor, it isn't.

The real reasons for the increasing costs of healthcare are 1) medical technology (MRI machines for example) and 2) the burden of treating those without insurance - this bumps up the per procedure costs for everyone else.

Offline Ryan

  • Just another crazy runner
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8247
  • Karma: 11
  • 2011 Walleye Run
    • Hillrunner.com
Runnerdude
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2004, 06:13:27 PM »
Quote from: "Ed 1"
Did you know that malpractice insurance is over a million dollars a year - cut that down and doctors can cut their rates.


The 2% quote I saw included malpractice insurance and legal fees. That means completely get rid of malpractice insurance and you are cutting rates by no more than 2%. Out of curiosity, who is paying over a million dollars per year for malpractice insurance? I don't think I want to go there, they must have a lot of claims filed against them.

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2004, 06:37:47 AM »
There is another major cost that Runnerdude alluded to and that is Medicade otherwise known as T-19.  This is for those that have very little in assets (under $2,000 total) and a gross income under $700.00 per month.  That alone is not the burden we face.  It is from the amount of no-shows that this population has.  This costs the medical industry much more money than they can claim against the State for reimbursement - which of course is passed on to us.  As hard as we try to get people to their appointments if some one is actively psychotic it can be nearly impossible.  For people with fixed delusions and paranoia it is also very difficult to get routine care done thus allowing severe issues to occur costing much more than the routine care would have.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline Ryan

  • Just another crazy runner
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8247
  • Karma: 11
  • 2011 Walleye Run
    • Hillrunner.com
Some healthcare numbers
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2004, 07:56:08 AM »
http://www.centerjd.org/air/pr/AIRhealthcosts.pdf

In 2002, medical malpractice payouts (verdicts, settlements, legal fees, etc.) accounted for 0.38% of total health care costs. This percentage has remained under 0.5% for the past 18 years.

In 2002, medical malpractice premiums accounted for 0.58% of total health care costs. This percentage has remained under 1% for the past 18 years and the general trend over that time has been downward.

All counted for, in 2002, medical malpractice costs accounted for 0.96% of total health care costs. By completely removing the costs of medical malpractice, your $1000 bill becomes $990.40. Is this worth not holding doctors responsible for negligence that could end or forever change a person's life?

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=133

Even the study Bush is using states malpractice costs are no more than 5-9% of medical costs and, as noted below, non-partisan groups, including one headed by a former Bush adviser, state that the study is fundamentally flawed and can not be applied across all health care disciplines.

Quote
CBO and GAO both question whether the results Kessler and McClellan observed in hospitalized heart patients can be applied to patients in cancer wards, nursing homes, doctors’ offices, maternity wards and elsewhere.

In 1999 a GAO study said the evidence Kessler and McClellan cited was too narrow to provide a basis for estimating overall costs of defensive medicine:

Because this study was focused on only one condition and on a hospital setting, it cannot be extrapolated to the larger practice of medicine. Given the limited evidence, reliable cost savings estimates cannot be developed.

And on Jan. 8, 2004 , the Congressional Budget Office also said the Kessler-McClellan study wasn’t a valid basis for projecting total costs of defensive medicine.

When CBO applied the methods used in the study of Medicare patients hospitalized for two types of heart disease to a broader set of ailments, it found no evidence that restrictions on tort liability reduce medical spending. Moreover, using a different set of data, CBO found no statistically significant difference in per capita health care spending between states with and without limits on malpractice torts.

Worth noting: The nonpartisan CBO is now headed by Douglas Holtz-Eakin, who previously was chief economist for President Bush's Council of Economic Advisers.

Offline r-at-work

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 989
  • Karma: 6
different view point
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2004, 09:14:26 AM »
one reason for the increase in malpractice insurance is that the insurance companies need to make money and THEY invest the premiums in CDs, bonds and municipal funds... those profits are down across the board and therefore they raise their premiums to the doctors so the investors continue to get their dividends...

and it certainly is easy to blame EVERY president for the ills... but congress has a hand in it too...

those two things aside... I have never been on welfare... but I have lived beyond the edge... husband walked away from me and two kids taking 2/3 the income, leaving me half the debt... I did LOTS of phone calling & investigating and while I'm sure you can all quote me lots of stats on single mothers... I was there... if I hadn't had a decent education it would have been more financially realistic to go on welfare instead of scraping by, nothing wrong with soup, no matter who's kitchen it comes out of...

health care... thorny, complex issue... even when you consider that most policies will cover viagra but not birth control... that the premiums for most unemployed people are greater than the welfare payment... that diabetics can get medicine but not couselling for healthier eating or exercise...

so while I'm sure we all want a comprehensive plan, pretending that politicians who always vote themselves a raise will find the solution  might not be the answer.. not sure there is one... but keep hammering on it, maybe one will come to you...
-Rita
"We run, not because we think it is doing us good, but because we enjoy it and cannot help ourselves..." Sir Roger Bannister

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2004, 09:35:04 AM »
Considering all that has been stated so far there are dozens of small things that need to be addressed in order to get the big picture under control.  Another major issue is the number of people involved in the health insurance industry.  I have poor coverage with high co-pays.  I pay 25% of the premiums and I pay $352.00 per month that means my family coverage is $1,408.00 per month.  For what?  All of the people that handle each claim, change coverage policies, manage those employees, craete lists and make changes to the lists of covered providers.  There are way to many middle-men involved in the healthcare industry.  

But then those are family supporting jobs - so what do we do?  If we cut the fat from those areas then the unemployment rate will increase as will the number of uninsured.  

To tackle the uninsured problem - small business (yes Senator Kerry's filthy rich people) should get specific tax breaks for healthcare costs for its employees.  The government should also subsidize businesses to help cover part-time employees as well.  This would be a better way to address the issue - rather than raise taxes by 1.5 trillion dollars as Senator Kerry plans to do.  

Those that are unemployed would be covered by the already in place State programs such as Medicade, GA-MP, Medicare etc...
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline Ryan

  • Just another crazy runner
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8247
  • Karma: 11
  • 2011 Walleye Run
    • Hillrunner.com
Runnerdude
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2004, 11:02:24 AM »
Just a note, malpractice premiums have been going down, not up for the past 2 decades. There is a slight upward trend since 2001 but nothing near the previous downward trend.

It's amazing how much can be accomplished in the current system, even with malpractice suits and everything else going on. Where I work, I pay $6/week for insurance. For a family, coverage is $18/week, more for step-children but never totally outrageous. I don't see a single possibility of any employee paying as much as $500/month for complete coverage. This includes medical, dental, and eye coverage as well as prescriptions. Go to a company run provider and, no matter what you're getting done, it's $5/visit. Going to other providers is also quite affordable. The plan is working so well that our medical group has contracted with Briggs and I believe also Rockwell to run their medical plans.

What all of this tells me is that you don't need major reform in policies to get affordable health care. You don't need to worry about the actually relatively inexpensive malpractice claims, you don't need to worry about spending hundreds of billions of dollars to ensure everyone is covered. You simply need to take a look at the process as it exists and run it like a fiscally responsible business.

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2004, 06:53:54 AM »
I don't see a single possibility of any employee paying as much as $500/month for complete coverage. This includes medical, dental, and eye coverage as well as prescriptions. - Ryan

I pay 25% of the premium and that is $302.00 per month.  Each visit is $20.00, prescriptions mostly are $20.00 a piece, mine is non-preferres so it is $50.00 monthly.  My wife is diabetic, our medical costs are nearly $500.00 a month all told.  

But with President Bush's plan to allow businesses to band together will cut those costs by letting us bargain with insurance companies as a group with other small businesses.  That way instead of a risk group of 28 employees it could be in the hundreds.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline Ryan

  • Just another crazy runner
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8247
  • Karma: 11
  • 2011 Walleye Run
    • Hillrunner.com
Runnerdude
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2004, 07:35:19 AM »
Ed, be careful not to take my quote out of context. I was speaking about where i work. This is an example of what can be done even under the current system with some creativity. I pay roughly $24/month plus $5/visit as my medical expenses, less than $30/month total since on average I make a visit well under once per month. In other words, we don't have to turn things on end. All we need are minor fixes to encourage people and companies to cut through the expensive red tape and get down to the bottom line.

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2004, 10:05:37 AM »
I appologize I read that wrong.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline sub3marathon

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 41
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2004, 02:40:50 PM »
Quote from: "runnerdude"
Actually, I'm a big liberal and proud to be one that's what it means to see through your bs and expose you for the fascist tool that you are.

you state that your experience is about NOW, well then you should know that NOW there are about 45 million people (1 out of 6) in our country who don't have health insurance and 4 years ago that figure was 37 million people. That is a poor track record for the Bush administration.

As far as "making people reliant upon the government," we already are reliant upon it for our security. Do you have a problem with that too? And, as a matter of fact I do think it is more compassionate to have the government provide a minimum of social protection than to let the most destitute and disadvantaged members of society fend for themselves or depend on the possible kindness of strangers.

Your quote about the welfare system is totally warped, but I will say this: If it allows women and children to live away from their husbands and fathers because those husbands & fathers are abusive, then it's worth it.


That 45 million is overblown.  Many of them are young people who choose not to be covered.  Also, they have access to medical care.

The "kindness of strangers" works pretty well.  Let's see how much private non-profits raise for hurricane survivors in the SE.  Americans are the most giving people in the world.  If all government welfare programs were eliminated tomorrow, churchs and orgs like United Way would pick up the slack.  I have more faith in my fellow man than those who think government is the answer.

I do not rely on the government for my security in the sense of my own personal security.  Government cannot protect me or you;  each person is responsible for this.  I make decisions that improve the likelihood of me remaining safe.  The options include locks on my doors and a gun in the house.  If someone breaks in intent on killing me, the police cannot stop them.  The police can only investigate and arrest. How does that protect me?  

The police are not really required to protect us.  Our protection comes from the CJ system catching people who commit a crime, lock them up and then they cannot menace society anymore.  That is a trickle.  

You are one of the few people who admits to being a big liberal.  I admire that.  Most liberals (John Kerry!) will not admit to being liberal even when their voting records or statements show them to be quite liberal.

Offline runnerdude

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 124
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2004, 03:03:42 PM »
Quote
That 45 million is overblown. Many of them are young people who choose not to be covered. Also, they have access to medical care.


First of all, says you that they "choose not to be covered" How do you not know that they wouldn't choose to be covered if it were less costly. Secondly, even if many of them are young people who choose not to be covered, the same thing could have been said about the 37 million 4 years ago.

Quote
If all government welfare programs were eliminated tomorrow, churchs and orgs like United Way would pick up the slack.


and where would they get the money to pick up the slack? We don't need you to tell us how generous the American public is, but I wouldn't overestimate their generosity.

Quote
I do not rely on the government for my security in the sense of my own personal security.


Well, initially I was referring to security in the "national security" sense. If you think the cops don't deter crime at all, ask yourself what would happend if there were none.

Quote
You are one of the few people who admits to being a big liberal.


Like I said, if being liberal means standing up to mindless, far right-wing demagoguery, then sign me up.

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2004, 08:04:23 AM »
Runnerdude seems to want George Orwell's 1984 to become reality - an enormous central government that controls when I pee, eat, drink and even shit.  I also must work 60 hours a week so that others can lay around on their ever fattening asses (due to the evil fast food industry) and choose not to work.  

PS - as I drive around (part of my job) I see a large number of help wanted signs (this is Wisconsin) - some people don't seem to want to work.  If I lost my job - I would work 2 or 3 part time jobs to support my family until I found other work.  Too many lazy fat asses out there are unwilling to do that.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline runnerdude

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 124
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2004, 09:40:47 AM »
Quote
If I lost my job - I would work 2 or 3 part time jobs until I found other work.


maybe you need to lose your job to learn some respect for other peoples' views. Also, by working those other jobs, those "help wanted" signs could come down and stop obstructing our views of whatever those signs are in front of.

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2004, 09:58:08 AM »
Please clarify what you mean by what those signs are covering up.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline runnerdude

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 124
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2004, 10:02:26 AM »
well, I've only been to Wisconsin three times, but I know that there are many areas that have nice scenery such as pastures, lakes, woods, etc... (great for runners). If there are "help wanted" signs, then they may be partially obstructing our views of such natural areas.

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2004, 10:12:47 AM »
I know that most of you East Cost high society type do not know that there are large cities in the Mid-West but we do actually have more than just farms.  A city like Milwaukee does not have nice pretty pastoral views.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Anonymous

  • Guest
Runnerdude
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2004, 06:19:35 PM »
Quote from: "Ed 1"
Runnerdude seems to want George Orwell's 1984 to become reality - an enormous central government that controls when I pee, eat, drink and even shit.


That's what the Bush Cartel, sponsored in part by Haliburton, wants.  Over the past 20+ years, as a rule Republican administrations have expanded government, spending, and deficits while Democratic administrations have shrunk them.  The numbers don't lie.  If you want your views to be considered informed and intelligent then find better sources for your information than blatantly lying partisan hypocrites like Limbaugh and O'Reilly and the GOP White House Propaganda Office aka network news.

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2004, 06:19:15 AM »
Are you a Frenchie my dear guest - cause then I could ask for your permission to instal a burglar alarm to help protect my family?
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline runnerdude

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 124
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2004, 12:02:37 PM »
Quote
I know that most of you East Cost high society type do not know that there are large cities in the Mid-West but we do actually have more than just farms. A city like Milwaukee does not have nice pretty pastoral views.


and I know that the great people of Wisconsin are too sagacious (I hope that's not over your head, Ed) to be fooled by a charlatan like bush.

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2004, 12:09:42 PM »
To avoid the subject change I'll return to the point - the big city does not have pastoral views hidden by the numerous help wanted signs.  

Oh and only a true compassionate liberal would wish for someone with a diabetic wife and two young children to lose their job.  Thanks for the compassion on behalf of my family.  

(Oh and nice use of the thesaurus.)
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Jingoistic Ed

  • Guest
Runnerdude
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2004, 06:18:02 PM »
Quote from: "Ed 1"
Are you a Frenchie my dear guest - cause then I could ask for your permission to instal a burglar alarm to help protect my family?


Why, do you fear or hate the French, Edward?

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2004, 06:24:28 AM »
Not at all.  I am upset that people like my grandfather gave their lives to free them from Nazi occupation and they have the nerve to put money before American lives.  

Plus why would I fear an Army with the worst case of sunburned armpits in the world.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline runnerdude

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 124
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2004, 08:29:05 AM »
Quote
they have the nerve to put money before American lives


Cher Edouard, if the French have such nerve, then tell us why did they escort about 200 American kids and teachers in Cote d'Ivoire to safety? Didn't Bill O'Reilly mention this on his show? Why did they assist us in the bombing and ground campaigns in Afghanistan? Why are they providing information about al quaeda suspects to our CIA & FBI?

Offline Bart

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 223
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2004, 08:45:57 AM »
Quote from: "Ed 1"
Not at all.  I am upset that people like my grandfather gave their lives to free them from Nazi occupation and they have the nerve to put money before American lives.


What American lives would have been saved if the French had joined the U.S., Britain and others in the war against Iraq?  Would France's involvement had made the conflict less dangerous for American soldiers?  Spain pulled their soldiers out of Iraq.  Did that also risk American lives?  

The only change France's involvement would have had on the current situation is that more French lives would also be at risk.  Don't be angry with the French because they weren't mislead by President Bush's erroneous claims of WMD.  I realize that President Bush said that other countries are either with us or against us, but does that mean that everyone who questioned President Bush's claims of WMD are now our enemies?
************************
http://runbart.blogspot.com/
Napa Valley Marathon - 3:06:39

Offline Ryan

  • Just another crazy runner
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8247
  • Karma: 11
  • 2011 Walleye Run
    • Hillrunner.com
Runnerdude
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2004, 09:50:23 AM »
Quote from: "Bart"
Quote from: "Ed 1"
Not at all.  I am upset that people like my grandfather gave their lives to free them from Nazi occupation and they have the nerve to put money before American lives.


What American lives would have been saved if the French had joined the U.S., Britain and others in the war against Iraq?


Instead of 1000+ American soldiers dead, we would have had 900+ American soldiers dead and 100 French soldiers dead. I believe the French government has more of a responsibility to its citizens and soldiers than to American citizens and soldiers, though, no matter what happened 60 years ago. After all, last I checked, France is a sovereign country. If they didn't feel that war was the answer, as most of the world didn't, they would have been foolish to send their soldiers into harms way.

Of course, I would have to question who is actually placing money before American lives. It couldn't be the large American corporations that are making big profits from government contracts in Iraq, could it?

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2004, 12:24:57 PM »
If anyone believes what Senator Kerry stated in January and I know that most of you believe him, then his exact words were that, we are safer now that Saddam is captured.  

It is amazing that I should almost have to bring up the reasons that France, Germany and Russia were against the war - in fact I will not do it.  You can look it up it is in posts.

My question is - Russia was against pre-emptive strikes or at least they were in our case.  Now after the terrible tragedy of the school incident - they stated that they are going to do the same.  So is it right or wrong?
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2004, 12:38:43 PM »
This is my third request - can we give this a try?

So can we all start over and respond to a post I had about discussing each issue we see as important and come up with ideas to correct those issues? I would like to write to whomever wins the White House in November with those issues and ideas to solve them. If we an obviously spirited group can work together it could be the start of the Runner's Party. We would be better off with more than two party's in this Country like when our Founding Fathers founded it.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline Bart

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 223
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2004, 01:00:56 PM »
Quote from: "Ed 1"
If anyone believes what Senator Kerry stated in January and I know that most of you believe him, then his exact words were that, we are safer now that Saddam is captured.


We are safer than before he was caught, but we are not safer than before the invasion of Iraq.


Quote from: "Ed 1"
It is amazing that I should almost have to bring up the reasons that France, Germany and Russia were against the war - in fact I will not do it.  You can look it up it is in posts.

My question is - Russia was against pre-emptive strikes or at least they were in our case.  Now after the terrible tragedy of the school incident - they stated that they are going to do the same.  So is it right or wrong?


You don't have to bring up the reasons that France, Germany, and Russia were against the war.  In fact, they don't even need a reason.  I agree with Ryan; those countries need to do what's best for their citizens.  

No one was against U.S. strikes in Afganistan following the attacks on 9/11.  It's the unrelated attacks in Iraq that a large percent of the world community was/is against.
************************
http://runbart.blogspot.com/
Napa Valley Marathon - 3:06:39

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2004, 01:06:02 PM »
I'll take that as a NO.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline runnerdude

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 124
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2004, 01:07:17 PM »
Quote
It is amazing that I should almost have to bring up the reasons that France, Germany and Russia were against the war


Ed, why don't you humor us and tell us what you think those reasons are? I'm sure they'll be quite entertaining if nothing else.

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2004, 01:12:46 PM »
I'll take your respons as a NO as well.  Again, I stated (since you forgot to read my entire post) that those reasons are listed in earlier posts and I will not hash over them again.  But I'll take your answer to working as a group on issues as a NO.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline Bart

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 223
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2004, 02:50:43 PM »
Quote from: "Ed 1"
I'll take your respons as a NO as well.  Again, I stated (since you forgot to read my entire post) that those reasons are listed in earlier posts and I will not hash over them again.  But I'll take your answer to working as a group on issues as a NO.


I read your entire post.  In fact, I read it three times.  I think we are working as a group.  That doesn't mean we have to agree with everything you say.  You're stating your opinions, and we're stating ours.  That's part of how a group works.  Face it, we're not going to get to the point where we all agree.

You're not playing on a level field if you give us your opinions and then complain that we're not acting as a group if we disagree with you.  Are we allowed equal time to give our opinions?  Or did you appoint yourself group leader, and the rest of us are supposed to just stand behind you and cheer loudly when you speak?
************************
http://runbart.blogspot.com/
Napa Valley Marathon - 3:06:39

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2004, 07:59:46 AM »
Wow are you lost - What I have been asking is if we could pick an issue say the war on terror and all brainstorm on ways to address that.  Not simply state that the President or Senator Kerry are wrong or not doing a good job.  Your quote is only part of my post - you forgot the remainder of it.  

I was hoping to go non-partisan with all here and tackle issues one by one with ideas to solve them.  Not pass blame.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Offline Bart

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 223
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #46 on: September 24, 2004, 09:58:42 AM »
Quote from: "Ed 1"
I was hoping to go non-partisan with all here and tackle issues one by one with ideas to solve them.  Not pass blame.


Okay, here's my opinion on how we need to address the war on terror.  We need to re-join the global community.  When we attacked Iraq, we burned a lot of bridges with our allies in Germany, France, Russia, etc.  Plus we angered millions of Muslims.  Now al Qaida's recruiting is at an all time high.  

Elections need to be held in Iraq.  We need to include representatives from democracies all over the world to ensure that the elections are fair and that the winners are not hand-picked by the American government.  Then we need to turn Iraq over to the Iraqi people with the hope that the training their police/military have received, plus a taste of free elections will give them the strength to overcome the violence that will follow.  If not, the UN should step in and work to maintain peace.

The U.S. can then mobilize our troops against Osama bin Laden, and we can work with other nations to close down terrorist cells throughout the world.

Obviously it's not that simple, but we need definite goals for getting the U.S. out of Iraq and making their country self-governing and the U.S. a safer place.
************************
http://runbart.blogspot.com/
Napa Valley Marathon - 3:06:39

Offline Ed 1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 0
Runnerdude
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2004, 08:06:41 AM »
I do not consider any other Nations of the world our allies but I agree on finishing the job in Iraq and commiting to hunting terror cells and Osama.  The reason that I do not consider any other nations in the world our allies is simple.  Have the people of Florida seen anything from those nations.  I am not looking for them to send money, food, water or teddy bears for little children but how about a note of sympathy.  Four hurricanes in 6 weeeks is bad.
Last (first) Marathon Lakefront (2003) in Milwaukee WI 3:35:34, 1/2 mary PB 1:28:17
Next Up - Jingle Bell.  

Praying for the chance (schedule wise) next year to work for a sub three.

Tags: