Am I insane?

Welcome! Forums Running Forum Am I insane?

This topic contains 22 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  JCWrs 14 years, 6 months ago.

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  • #1071

    JCWrs
    Member

    The obvious answer is of course I am, but take this case by itself to answer that question this time. I am trying to come up with a plan that will give me a shot at running the marathon trials (probably 2012 because I’m a long way from that level right now) and so I’m looking at a long term plan. I know that for the time being I should just get in as many miles as I can so that I’ll have a nice big base. However, during this phase (and the other subsequent phases) I was wondering…would it be ok if, every 3-4 weeks (I’m thinking 4 now that I have thought about the way it would play out) I replaced my long run with a prolonged run at a fast pace? Now, I’m talking not race effort, but something at or below my MP for 13+ miles. I was thinking that, I could run 3 weeks of training, then run this kind of “training race” at the end of the third week and then have the 4th week as a step-back week that I was going to build in anyway. My logic here is that, since I havent ever trained specifically for distance running before (I was always a wreslter just staying in shape by dabbling in distance running, but I dont wrestle anymore) I would get some experience at running hard for long periods of time and I would also get somewhat immediate feedback as to if I was making progress in my training. Now, my question is…is this a reasonable approach? Am I setting myself up to get hurt? Is there a better way to do this sort of thing that I’m overlooking? I figured that, if I do go this route, I could build in the few races that I do find to run in to replace this long hard run and that would work out. Let me know what you think, I am hoping to have a good guideline by Jan 1. Thanks

    Oh, BTW, I have never completed a marathon before, but my other PR’s are…5K 19:33, 10K 41:20, HM 1:31:35.

  • #12832

    Anonymous

    I’m a dreamer as well! If you can’t visualize it it will not happen, and if you don’t try it you’ll never know!

    The thing is, sub 2:20 guys I’ve spoke with all have experience in high school or college running . Miles and Miles of experience and running really fast like 30 minute and sub 30 10k’s as well as low to mid 14’s for 5k’s. As I was talking with these guys , I asked them what they thought it would take a guy like me if I was 25 instead of 40 without track or X-country experience to run a sub 2:30 . They both said that at some point their is natural ability along with the determination and will power and dedication it would take. If your really determined I mean really determined I think you could at least give it a go! They also said they would try to lower their 5k and 10k for a few years and see what kind of potentional they might have . it is a lot easier to train someone who has speed to reach that time , then it is to have a guy with no natural speed and try to teach or train him to run 5:25 PACE for a thon. What I’m saying is you really need to run close to 30-31 minutes for a 10k to really have a good chance to get a Olympic Qualifier. I’m not sure what the slowest 10k time a guy has run and still qualified for the trials. I’m sure my boy Zeke could find it somewhere. To put it in a nutshell , I would take a couple of years and see how low you can get your 5k and 10k times , While trying to increase your mileage gradually up to 100 miles per week.

    You’ll start to get some indication of where you are at.

    Worst case scenario you’ll be in great shape and ready to rock -n- roll !

    Good Luck ,

    Woody

  • #12833

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    You have to be insane to be an “average” guy with such a lofty goal. It takes that insanity, as well as incredible willpower and determination, to reach that goal.

    As for Woody’s comments, I’d say you don’t really need to be a low-14 or 30-flat runner to run a 2:22 or faster. Actually, if I punch 2:22 into the race conversion calculator ( http://www.hillrunner.com/calculators/raceconversion.html ) I get 14:48 and 30:51. I think someone who is very strong in the longer distances could run a sub-2:22 without getting too far under 32 and without ever getting under 15. If I remember correctly, Miles and Miles has never broken 15 in the 5k but he will be in Birmingham. All of this said, I do agree with Woody about developing in the shorter distances first. Take a look at the elites. How many of them went to the marathon before becoming very good on the track first?

    OK, now to your question. I think a good hard run once a month isn’t a bad idea but I’d actually make it a race when possible. Look for races of 10-25k and give it a go in them.

    I hope to see you in 2012. 🙂

  • #12834

    Zeke
    Member

    I’m not sure what the slowest 10k time a guy has run and still qualified for the trials. I’m sure my boy Zeke could find it somewhere. To put it in a nutshell, I would take a couple of years and see how low you can get your 5k and 10k times , While trying to increase your mileage gradually up to 100 miles per week.

    I’m not sure about the 10k times, like Ryan said, I think they’d have to be sub-32. With the trial fast-approaching, maybe one of the magazines will feature the qualifiers with their bios. I’d be more curious to hear who’s run the least mileage leading up to the trials. I.e. is everyone running 120+ mpw or is someone doing 80, 100, etc.?

    JCWrs, you’re definitely going to have to get more consistent and increase your mileage. 40 mpw with 2 days off a week is not going to get it done. I’d start by running 6 days a week, then 7, then 9 times a week, then 10, etc.

  • #12835

    JCWrs
    Member

    Zeke, you’re right about that…the mileage has got to go WAY up and thats what I’m working on now. I have gone to 6 days a week running and I’m trying to push my mileage up a little each week. Now that I dont have wrestling to interfere I can focus on running so that will help. I’m hooing to get up to 50+ by Jan. 1st and get to 100 mile weeks by the end of 2004. I think thats the most important thing right now is to get the mileage to the right level. Once I get there, I’ll see where my speed is and, if its not down around the 32-33 minute range, I’ll have to get it there, but until I’m running the volume that I need to be, its kind of useless to worry about speed.

    Thanks everyone for your responses. I guess I have a lot of work to do so I better go out for a run, I’ll keep ya updated and hopefully I will see some of you in ’12. Later

  • #12836

    Ryan
    Keymaster
    JCWrs wrote:
    I’m hooing to get up to 50+ by Jan. 1st and get to 100 mile weeks by the end of 2004. I think thats the most important thing right now is to get the mileage to the right level. Once I get there, I’ll see where my speed is and, if its not down around the 32-33 minute range, I’ll have to get it there, but until I’m running the volume that I need to be, its kind of useless to worry about speed.

    I’d like to offer a word of caution here. Don’t focus too long on strictly base to the exclusion of everything else. You have plenty of time. You don’t need to rush to 100 mpw, you can work your way up incrementally. Work up a bit, then crank off a racing season. Then, work up a little more and do another racing season. Doing it all in one big chunk can lead to bad results.

    I think a lot of people don’t understand the message about volume. High volume isn’t the holy grail of distance running. It’s one of the required tools for optimal performance but focusing on it at the expense of everything else is no better than focusing on interval workouts at the expense of establishing a base.

  • #12837

    Zeke
    Member

    Once I get there, I’ll see where my speed is and, if its not down around the 32-33 minute range, I’ll have to get it there, but until I’m running the volume that I need to be, its kind of useless to worry about speed.

    I agree with Ryan. Don’t wait until you’re at 100 mpw until you “see where your speed is.” Again, think periodization. It’s alright to build a base for 3-6 months, set up a racing season, recover, build base, race, recover, etc.

  • #12838

    My PR in the 10K is only 31:36 and my 5K is 15:12 and my Marathon PR is 2:22:03. I can post my training prior to the 2:22 Marathon if anyone is actually interested in that. If so I will post it tomorrow, if anyone is still reading along on this thread? But for now, I am off work and off to run.

  • #12839

    danm
    Member

    Miles and Miles cool to see you were lurking. By the way, congrats on the trials and hope you can get back to speed soon.

    I miss running in the bay area where I lived from ’90 to ’95. I ran for the East Bay Striders with Thom Trimble, Jeff Teeters and a few others. (we were a force to be reckoned with at the Tahoe Relays!!! 2nd place 4 years running).

    Please do post your training as this has become a hot topic of late.

    I was just talking with Woody and I think we both agree there is definitely something with genetics, desire, etc that get us to a certain level. I see a lot of runners who run 70-80 miles per week running 18:30 5k’s and 40 minute 10k’s and I wonder why, yet they still say their plan is to try and run in the trials in 2, 4, or whatever years. RIGHT!

    The best example of how difficult it is to make the trials is Dan Mayer who is the local stud here in Chicago. I mean the guy was a 28:45 10k national champion and he cannot make the trials! He is still cleaning up around here at all distances but can’t seem to get that time in the low 2:20’s in the marathon that he has attempted several times now.

    I don’t mean this as a dis on any one runner. The goal should be to try and get the most out of your running now. If you think running in the trials in 2012 is a goal, start with a gradual progression and see where it leads. Like the guys above said, lay a base, measure your base with a season of racing and do this for a few years to see if it is even within the realm of possiblilty for you as a runner.

    I have bad news for some people, it is not in the cards. There is a big enough genetic factor that training really hard will not overcome.

    But that is my opinion…and I may be wrong.

  • #12840

    Woody
    Member

    http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/cgi-bin/calculations.pl

    I put in 2:22 you’ll see the numbers. This is the best calculator I’ve seen out there .

    But more then that talk with the guys who have been there. Spoke with another dude today Dave Walters he ran 2:18 in 1984 ran against Pfitz when Pfitz won the trials. He gave me the genetic talk that Dan and I also had.

    There is a wall based on your genetics that you will hit, more then the desire , dedication , amount of miles run. Especially * note especially at the level we are talking about 2:22 or sub 2:20 is alot different then running 2:30 or even 2:25. If it was easy everybody could do it. Think of how many people are running the miles Chad has . How come he ran 2:22 and they didn’t. Did he try harder , run more miles, more dedicated. What do you think Chad? I feel the genetics part is huge at this level. Dan’s right how come some people run 70-90 miles a week consistently for years and can’t break 18 or 19 for that matter in a 5k. Are they doing base year round, are they not dedicated enough, not tough enough for anaerobic burning.

    Cool thing about this is, it’s America so you can do what you want and try your whole life , ain’t nobody gonna stop you! Somebody will do it! The more that try the better chances we have of finding that Genetic stud who has all the tools.

    Makes me think? There’s probably some young stud playing ” Play station” 5-6 hours a day that could bust a sub 2:20 if he spent the time running instead of watching or playing TV all Day.

    Don King

  • #12841

    Ryan
    Keymaster
    Woody wrote:
    http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/cgi-bin/calculations.pl

    I put in 2:22 you’ll see the numbers. This is the best calculator I’ve seen out there .

    Well, I put 2:22 into http://www.hillrunner.com/calculators/raceconversion.html which is the best equation I’ve seen out there, which is why I used it. You can see the numbers I came up with.

    Woody wrote:
    Think of how many people are running the miles Chad has .

    I’m thinking of how many and there aren’t a whole lot.

    Woody wrote:
    Dan’s right how come some people run 70-90 miles a week consistently for years and can’t break 18 or 19 for that matter in a 5k. Are they doing base year round, are they not dedicated enough, not tough enough for anaerobic burning.

    A number of these people go to the opposite extreme from what many Americans do. They do the 70-90 miles a week but they don’t put that together with the rest of the pieces of the puzzle. Volume is one aspect of training for high performance racing. It’s far from the only aspect.

    Woody wrote:
    There’s probably some young stud playing ” Play station” 5-6 hours a day that could bust a sub 2:20 if he spent the time running instead of watching or playing TV all Day.

    Just sub-2:20? There’s probably more than just one guy out there playing his video games who could break 2:10 if he gave it an honest shot. Unfortunately, that’s just how the American culture is these days.

    BTW Chad, you know I’m a training log geek. I’d love to see what your training log looked like. I’m always interested in seeing training logs and seeing if I can get some ideas from the logs of those who are faster than me.

  • #12842

    Zeke
    Member

    I’m a training log geek. I’d love to see what your training log looked like. I’m always interested in seeing training logs and seeing if I can get some ideas from the logs of those who are faster than me.

    Locally, there’s a monthly tabloid style newspaper called Twin Cities Sports (I know they have other regional editions too). The last issue had a sample week from Chris Lundstrom’s log, he’s one on the Oly qualifiers from Team USA Minnesota.

    Monday

    AM 16M w/ 8-12M @ 5-10 seconds faster than MP

    PM 5M easy

    Tuesday

    AM 10M at moderate pace

    PM 10M w/ 8M easy and 8x200m strides w/ 200m jog

    Wednesday

    AM 9M at moderate pace

    PM 6M easy

    Thursday

    AM 16M w/ 3M warmup, 10M fartlek, 3M cooldown

    PM 5M easy

    Friday

    AM 9M easy

    PM 6M easy w/ 8x100m strides

    Saturday

    AM 23M progressively faster

    PM off

    Sunday

    AM 9M easy

    PM 6M easy w/ 8 x 100m strides

    Total miles: 130; 15-20 minutes of stretching with each run and core strengthening exercises 3-5 times per week.

  • #12843

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Interesting schedule. The one thing that really stands out to me is he only does one true hard workout plus the slightly faster than MP run and strides. Lots of “moderate” running in there, though. 15-20 minutes of stretching with each run. This is something I should keep in mind after my experiences from this year.

  • #12844

    The old genetics discussion. I kind of sit on the fence on this one. I think there is something to genetics, but not much. I don’t think EVERYONE can run 2:22, but I do think that a lot of people could. I am nothing special. I ran the 100 meters in high school in 11.4, that was my specialty. Junior College I ran the 400 meters as my event in 51.0. In college I ran the 800 as my event in 1:58. None of those are anything great. I didn’t start running distance until I was 20 years old. My first XC race I was pulled off the course in the last 200 meters because I was dry heaving so bad (my first DNF, ha). I was 8th man on my Junior College XC team. I was 7th man on my college team (Div. 1 University). Take what you want from there. It took me about 8 years of top level training (progression) to get to 2:22.

    OK onto the schedule. In 2002 I ran Boston in 2:29 and then took two weeks of milage in the 40’s. After that it went like this.

    5/6 – 6 Easy (6:27)

    5/7 – 10 Easy (6:44)

    5/8 – 10 Easy (6:35)

    5/9 – 2 Easy, 6 Fartlek (2 on 2’s, 5:39 pace), 2 Easy

    5/10 – 10 Easy (6:29)

    5/11 – 14 Easy (6:39)

    5/12 – 10 Easy (6:38)

    Total of 70

    5/13 – 10 Easy (6:54)

    5/14 – 2 Easy, 6 Tempo (5:27), 2 Easy

    5/15 – 10 Easy (6:35)

    5/16 – AM 7 Easy (6:36), PM 2 Easy, 8 Fartlek (3 on 2’s, 5:40), 2 Easy

    5/17 – 8 Easy (6:40)

    5/18 – 3 Easy, 10 Med/Hard (5:47), 3 Easy

    5/19 – 7 Easy in hills (6:38)

    Total of 80

    5/20 – 11 Easy (6:43)

    5/21 – 3 Easy, 1 Strides, 5 x 1200 (3:41), 3 Easy

    5/22 – 10 Easy (6:40)

    5/23 – 2 Easy, 6 Tempo (5:22), 2 Easy

    5/24 – 11 Easy (6:36)

    5/25 – 10 Easy (6:45)

    5/26 – 6 Easy (6:56)

    Total of 70

    5/27 – 2 Easy, Strides, 10K Race (32:48), 3.5 Easy

    5/28 – AM 4 Easy (6:46), PM 12 Easy (6:44)

    5/29 – AM 5.5 Easy, PM 3 Easy, 1 Strides, 4 x Mile (5:05 avg), 3 Easy

    5/30 – 10 Easy

    5/31 – 8 Easy

    6/1 – 18 Easy (6:31)

    6/2 – 8 Medium (5:51)

    Total of 90

    Week of 6/3 100 Total, Key workout 20 with the middle 10 at 5:37 pace

    Week of 6/10 110 Total, with a tempo and 2 x 2 Mile

    Week of 6/17 70 Total, with a 8 x 800 (2:29 avg) and Fartlek and an 8K race in 25:21

    Week of 6/24 110 Total, 16 x 400 (69 avg) and a Fartlek and 22 at 6:09 pace.

    Week of 7/1 71 Total, Fartlek and 5M race (25:25) and 1M race (4:33)

    Week of 7/8 102 Total, Tempo (5:31 died in the heat) and 5K race (15:23) and 27 at 6:11 pace

    Week of 7/15 110 Total, Tempo (5:14), 5.82M race (5:04 pace) and 27 in 6:17 pace.

    Week of 7/22 94 Total, Tempo (5:13), 23 at 6:00 pace.

    Week of 7/29 99 Total, Tempo (5:16)

    Week of 8/5 80 Total, 5K race (15:14), 27 (6:16)

    Week of 8/12 41 Total, 14 Medium (6:07)

    Week of 8/19 70 Total, 3 x 1 Mile (4:53), 4M XC Hilly Race (22:20)

    Week of 8/26 100 Total, 16×400 (71), Fartlek

    Week of 9/2 123 Total, Tempo (5:20), 24 (5:54)

    Week of 9/9 130 Total, Pyrimid Track workout, 4.2M Hilly XC Race (5:08 pace), 30 (6:29)

    9/16 AM 12 Easy, PM 13 Easy

    9/17 AM 10 Easy, PM 8 x 800 (2:26)

    9/18 AM 12 Easy, PM 12 Easy

    9/19 AM 10 Easy, PM Fartlek

    9/20 12 Easy

    9/21 8K XC Race (5:12 pace), long cooldown

    9/22 20 Easy (6:39)

    Total of 141

    Week of 9/23 70 Total, Hill Repeats, Fartlek, 10K Race (31:36)

    Have to go will finish the rest later.

  • #12845

    JCWrs
    Member

    Thanks to all for the advice and training schedules…that helps em out a whole lot! As far as genetics and limitations go, obviously I wont know if I can pull this off until I try. I have a suspicion that I have a lot of room for improvement because I’ve never trained for an entire year before (wrestling season always got in the way and I would go a few months without even thinking about running). Also, my Dad was a very fast HS distance guy until he tore up his knee and my whole family is built for distance running. Anyway, I know this is a long shot, but I’m willing to give it a go. Thanks to all for your advice and knowledge and I’m sure I’ll be back for more as things progress. Lastly, Go Miles and Miles at the Trials!

  • #12846

    Zeke
    Member

    I have a suspicion that I have a lot of room for improvement because I’ve never trained for an entire year before (wrestling season always got in the way and I would go a few months without even thinking about running).

    I don’t think anyone here will disagree with this. Get more consistent, year-round training, make running your sport and your times will drop like a rock. Just ask Woody, who started running about 3 years ago. For like 2 years, everytime he toed the line he set a PR.

  • #12847

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Chad, thanks for the training plan. That might be something that I end up printing out at some point to look very closely at.

    I’m sure you know that I’m with you on the genetics thing. I hear people so many times say if they only had the “talent” I have. Heck, if they only knew that I was the slowest guy around until I really committed to trying to become the absolute best runner I can be and started training more than everyone around me instead of doing the same thing as everyone else. I’m sure there is some limiting factor out there but until you try to find where your limits are, you have no idea of where your limits lie. So many people simply concede to “genetic limits” while they are still far from their potential because they seem to be unwilling to accept the idea that maybe they are capable of much more.

    I just got in a discussion about this somewhere else and someone offered me this quote:

    “You know, the more I trained the more talented I became.”

    -Bob Hodge

    A few others on this subject that I like:

    “Talent is cheaper than table salt. What separates the talented individual from the successful one is a lot of hard work.”

    -Stephen King

    “With ordinary talent and extraordinary perseverance, all things are attainable.”

    -Sir Thomas Foxwell Buxton

    “There is no such thing as a great talent without great will-power.”

    -Balzac

  • #12848

    Double
    Member

    that we get to run. I was born a runner. I ran against people all my life in school. I can’t tell you how many times we lined up as little kids and let fly.

    For the 14 years I didn’t run, I was still a runner in my head. I couldn’t wait to get back, I just procrastinated longer than I should. When I moved back to Western Pennsylvania, the hilly country roads called to me and I answered.

    I love the freedom of movement. To me, running is more like riding a bike than walking. I have never been a big walker, no excitement there, but running is fuel for the soul. There are no limitations, I will be about as good as I work at it. I don’t have one PR at any distance that I don’t think I could break if I worked at it. The higher I go up in distance, the broader the skies.

    I don’t want to confuse anyone into thinking I could run 2:22. Maybe there was a day decades ago, but I am a realist. The fun part about now is setting a goal and going after it. As they say, the true enjoyment is in the effort. Racing, as I have read, is the icing on the cake. Training is what makes me tick. This is where the battle is fought in the trenches. I enjoy plowing through workouts my opponents would only dream of. Of course, it is all relative, but it is a game I must play with myself to convince me that I will achieve my goal, I will beat my opponent, I will see the day I can honestly say…that’s all there is, there ain’t no more.

    I can’t say when this day will come, but while I’m still in this battle with mind and self, I’m going to keep throwing down.

  • #12849

    Week of 9/30 129 Total – Fartlek, Half Marathon Race as a workout in 1:10:17

    Week of 10/7 90 Total – 4x1M (5:01)

    Week of 10/14 71 Total – Tempo (5:14), Fartlek, Half Marathon Race (1:08:38)

    Week of 10/21 100 Total – All easy, recovery and flu.

    Week of 10/28 91 Total – 3x2M (10:13), Hill Repeats, 18 (5:51)

    Week of 11/4 81 Total – Fartlek, 10 Med, 30K race (5:26 pace)

    Week of 11/11 95 Total – Sat 20 (6:17), Sun 20 (6:33)

    Week of 11/18 82 Total – 16×400 (70), Fartlek, Hilly 6M XC Race (33:02)

    Week of 11/25 60 Total – 8 (5:50), 5K race (15:31)

    Week of 12/2 64 Total – Fartlek, Med 6 (5:56), Marathon (2:22:02.5)

    Hope this helps. I wouldn’t suggest copying what I did, but hopefully it gives you some idea of what it takes. You have to find what works for you. Let me know if you have any questions or want be to give more detail about any specific week.

  • #12850

    Woody
    Member

    My times did come down fast just like tons of other people.

    The Genetic Thing is big to me, Now listen to what I’m saying


    I feel there are alot of 32-33 10k guys that could get in the 2:25 range, but after that there needs to be a genetic factor. Not in any way am I saying that you can’t improve with more work or doing it right. But at that 2:22 or 2:20 range you better have the work ethnic and genetics on your side or it ain’t happening. I feel that although Chad ran 31:? he could probably go lower than that if he focused those 8 years just on a 10k. I know with strentgh comes speed through his other training. But I have a feeling he could go lower if he wanted. I’m getting this feedback from 3 sub 2:20 guys.

    I made a mistake The guy I toted earlier Dave Walters actually ran the 1988 trials and qualified with 2:19. I stand corrected. When I posed this question to him,

    At what point do Genectics kick in? He told me probaly somewhere in the 2:25 range. That doesn’t mean you don’t have good genes at 2:29-2:30 what ever .

    He also said that guys like him and Dan Mayer were running consistent 10k road races in sub 30 actually 29:15 was his PR , but were talking consistently racing in the 29-30 range every race. On His high school team he could only run 5:20 his Freshman year. He was 12th man. They all ran the same miles through the next 4 years about the same paces for training, but he kicked all their royal asses in the races. Why? You tell me. The best one of those twelve guys did besides him in a marathon was 2:28 and they were all over 100 mpw. You know the anwser he said. They all worked hard, they all had the desire, it was their obsession , It’s in the genes at that level. Hey you can train hard , put it on the line , do all the right stuff, I’m all for it we need more people to try it. Maybe JCwrs can do it! But if you can’t run 5:00 minute pace for a 10k how are you going to run 5:20-5:25 for a thon, and produce it when you need it on the given day. I don’t see any 33-34 10k guys doing it and it’s not because their not trying.

    Once again this is only my opinion, along with 3 sub 2:20 guys.

    Woody

  • #12851

    Double
    Member

    It ain’t all jogging around. I like to see those races in there. They help one get battle ready. Plus you get to have a little fun.

  • #12852

    Ryan,

    Here is another one for you that I just told my training partner yesterday.

    “The journey to 2008 starts today.”

    -Chad Worthen

    ha.

  • #12853

    magpie
    Member

    mistakenly attributed to denton:

    “shut up and run”

    -moi, to juco teammates ca. 1992

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