Best speed training advice needed

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This topic contains 7 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  Ed 1 14 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #1450

    Ed 1
    Member

    I am attempting the nearly impossible. If you read my little tag line you’ll see that I want to try and knock off about 30 minutes from my first marathon for my second marathon. I averaged about an 8:12 MPM pace but want to cut it to about a 6:54 MPM pace. My runs (still base building) of up to 10 miles have been at about 7:30s I am trying to establish this as my base pace and not the 8:00 MPM pace. Is this ok or I am kidding myself? Then what is the best method for speed training? Is it repeats after a run? Tempo runs (what exactly are they)? Should I do the lactate threshold training? Max VO2 training? I am very, very determined to do this.

  • #14358

    ferris
    Member

    I have to be honest, that is a VERY lofty goal. You are looking at taking off nearly 90 sec/mile. I’m not exactly sure when Fox Cities is, I think it is in the fall. That is pretty close to talk about improving THAT much.

    I don’t want to shoot you down, I’m glad you are motivated, but hear me out.

    The best way to improve for you next one, in my opinion is to really hit the miles and the Threshold runs. I really don’t think hitting 400’s on the track will help you build the aerobic capacity you are looking for. Miles and miles and miles and more miles will help more than speed.

    You obviously feel you can improve, and thats good. I would suggest upping the mileage, adding in some Threshold runs (start with 20 minutes at 10k pace and build on that) and, of course, Long runs and a mid week moderately long run (12-16 miles)

    After you have done that for quite some time, then I would think about speed.

    I will use Ryans “favorite” workout as an example….Yasso 800’s

    …..just because you can average 3:00 for 10×800 doesnt mean you have the aerobic capacity to run 3:00 for a marathon like that workout will lead you to believe.

    so, in short…..up the miles first.

    maybe shoot for a 3:15 a Fox Cities? baby steps. I would hate to see you get after 3:00 and not be ready for that pace, hit the wall HARD and get totally turned off by the Marathon distance……make the small improvements that will keep you hungry for more.

    or just prove me wrong and go run 2:59!

  • #14359

    MothAudio
    Member

    “I am kidding myself?” Yes, you are. Unless you didn’t train much for your 1st marathon or you just had a very sub-par performance. Only you can answer that. If that isn’t true unless your training ramps up considerably there is almost no way you can knock that much time off. How old are you? What’s your profile? What’s your best 10k or half?

    My 1st marathon was 3:35 [at age 22], I improved to 3:22 the next year in hot conditions [80 degrees]. The next year I ran 3:05. The 1st year I did no specfic training, I only did one 17 miler. The next two years I did the proper training. I would suggest to hold on to your goals but get in a few years of quality training then your times in shorter races will tell you want you have the potential to do.

    MikE

  • #14360

    fozrun
    Member

    and what was your effort level during the race? Setting a long run or easy run pace based on a marathon goal time is probably not the best way to go about a marathon plan. I would suggest getting a hold of Daniel’s charts and entering any recent races or test runs to figure out where you at the moment (you can also read up on tempo’s, lactate threshold etc). Then decide on a goal. When I broke 3 hrs it was because I already had sufficient speed, I just needed to work on endurance- that came with more mileage. Going sub-3 is a really good motivational goal. I’m sure you’ll get there, but don’t rush it or you may end up injured.

    Ed 1 wrote:
    I am attempting the nearly impossible. If you read my little tag line you’ll see that I want to try and knock off about 30 minutes from my first marathon for my second marathon. I averaged about an 8:12 MPM pace but want to cut it to about a 6:54 MPM pace. My runs (still base building) of up to 10 miles have been at about 7:30s I am trying to establish this as my base pace and not the 8:00 MPM pace. Is this ok or I am kidding myself? Then what is the best method for speed training? Is it repeats after a run? Tempo runs (what exactly are they)? Should I do the lactate threshold training? Max VO2 training? I am very, very determined to do this.
  • #14361

    Ed 1
    Member

    I think that that is where I am headed but I still am going to push incredibly hard for speed training to get a giant cut in time. I am 33 years old, working full time, going to Grad school, with a wife & two children. I think that the chips are stacked against me but that gives me more drive than ever. I am currnetly base building with minimum 5 mile runs most of them are 10 milers – my new pace is setting in (while base building) at about a 7:30 even at 10 mile runs not giving it my all. I think that I can drop a huge chunck of time by fall. I am looking at a 15-20 minute drop without any speed training – just by running harder and harder. Who knows – I am sure though that a sub three is an insane idea but without pushing the highest limits you can never grow or achieve.

  • #14362

    ferris
    Member

    from what you are saying about “finding your pace” it doesn’t look to me that you are even really ready for speed.

    stick with the base training. I really wouldn’t start any speed until you “find your pace”

    what I am saying is…it looks like you are still running PR’s in traiing runs…thats great……but it also that tells me you are still building general fitness and aerobic capacity. If I go for an easy 10 miler, I can assure you that it will be right around 70 minutes give or take 1 minute.

    stick with the base and run sone races along the way as checkpoints….if the race times start to plateau, then start to consider speed.

    once again…..keep the drive and motivation…its awesome!!! Good Luck!

  • #14363

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Maybe 3:00 is possible but it does seem like a very aggressive goal at this time. When this far out, I prefer not to think about specific time goals. My theory is train as hard and as smart as you can and, as you get closer to the big day, assess your fitness and choose a fitting goal. If you pick a goal right now, who knows what might happen that might make that goal seem either soft or impossible as the race nears? If you set your goal now, will you be willing to adjust it if circumstances dictate that you do?

    The real key to marathon performance for most runners these days is base. People simply go into a marathon with an inadequate base for where the rest of their training was. Their marathon training is great 5k training but, for marathon training, has an overemphasis on speed at the cost of aerobic conditioning. If they would have backed off the speedwork a bit and run a little more, they probably would have run at least as well, if not better, and would feel a lot better in the later miles.

    I noticed that you stated you wanted to do a lot of speedwork to knock a big chunk off of your marathon time. Instead, I would suggest establishing a base to knock a big chunk off of your marathon time and using speedwork to put the final touches on. Right now, focus fully on establishing your base. This is where you will get the most benefit this far out from your goal race. When you get 8-12 weeks out, then you can start thinking about speedwork to put the final touches on your marathon performance.

    Of course, focusing fully on base now doesn’t mean you always run slowly right now. Throw in some strides a couple of times a week and, if you’re feeling good, do a fartlek or just pick up the pace for a few miles.

  • #14364

    Anonymous

    Take a look at some programs and see what might fit with your life. I have similar circumstances.. 3 kids, full time job, school 3 hrs a week etc.. I found that the advanced marathon worked well for me. I had trouble fitting in the mid week long run but other than that it was doable. Look into a baby jogger. I have a double and find it gives my wife a nice break on the weekends and the kids really like it.

    Best advice I can give you is listen to what Ryan said. Take a phased approach. Intervals and race preparation should be about two months from your goal marathon.

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