Biker mauls Olympic trials qualifier!

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This topic contains 39 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  Bart 14 years, 8 months ago.

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  • #1884
  • #16155

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    That’s a horrible story. Something should definitely be done to protect the safety of all users of that trail.

    That said, I’m not going to blame cyclists as a whole. I know runners can be just as bad at times. I’ve seen situations where runners doing speed workouts on trails would pass walkers without calling out and occasionally intentionally brushing shoulders. Does this mean all runners are unsafe? I know it can be difficult at times to decide whether to call out or not. I’ve been yelled at for calling out and “startling” walkers when there was little to no room to safely pass without calling out and I’ve been yelled at for not calling out when there was more than enough room to safely pass. However, we have to decide what is safe. I’d rather be yelled at for trying to ensure the safety of everyone than hurt myself or someone else.

  • #16055

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    That’s a horrible story. Something should definitely be done to protect the safety of all users of that trail.

    That said, I’m not going to blame cyclists as a whole. I know runners can be just as bad at times. I’ve seen situations where runners doing speed workouts on trails would pass walkers without calling out and occasionally intentionally brushing shoulders. Does this mean all runners are unsafe? I know it can be difficult at times to decide whether to call out or not. I’ve been yelled at for calling out and “startling” walkers when there was little to no room to safely pass without calling out and I’ve been yelled at for not calling out when there was more than enough room to safely pass. However, we have to decide what is safe. I’d rather be yelled at for trying to ensure the safety of everyone than hurt myself or someone else.

  • #16156

    I’m not going to blame cyclists as a whole.

    I agree and I don’t want to give the impression that all bikers are dangerous. My experience is that slightly more than 50% of bikers warn of their presence either by calling or ringing their bell. This particular situation (Fiesta island) looks as though it’s out of control and the bikers there need to be disciplined.

  • #16056

    I’m not going to blame cyclists as a whole.

    I agree and I don’t want to give the impression that all bikers are dangerous. My experience is that slightly more than 50% of bikers warn of their presence either by calling or ringing their bell. This particular situation (Fiesta island) looks as though it’s out of control and the bikers there need to be disciplined.

  • #16157

    I grew up in San Diego and have run on Fiesta Island many times. I’ve never had a problem there, especially not with the bikers. I’ve always been more worried about the cars that drive there. In addition to being used by runners and bikers, Fiesta Island is a place where a lot of people go to party, especially high school kids.

    I don’t want this to sound like I’m blaming the runner, but with the bike traffic and potential for drunk drivers on that one-lane road, runners should definitely run against traffic. You’d think an experienced runner would know this.

  • #16057

    I grew up in San Diego and have run on Fiesta Island many times. I’ve never had a problem there, especially not with the bikers. I’ve always been more worried about the cars that drive there. In addition to being used by runners and bikers, Fiesta Island is a place where a lot of people go to party, especially high school kids.

    I don’t want this to sound like I’m blaming the runner, but with the bike traffic and potential for drunk drivers on that one-lane road, runners should definitely run against traffic. You’d think an experienced runner would know this.

  • #16158

    I don’t want this to sound like I’m blaming the runner, but with the bike traffic and potential for drunk drivers on that one-lane road, runners should definitely run against traffic. You’d think an experienced runner would know this.

    I’m sure the runner in this case knew to run agains traffic when running on roads. From the article I had the impression that vehicular traffic is curtailed on that island, so I think she may have had a false sense of security. The point is that the onus of notification & manoeuvering falls on those who are moving more quickly and some of the bikers who ride there now don’t seem to be up to the task.

  • #16058

    I don’t want this to sound like I’m blaming the runner, but with the bike traffic and potential for drunk drivers on that one-lane road, runners should definitely run against traffic. You’d think an experienced runner would know this.

    I’m sure the runner in this case knew to run agains traffic when running on roads. From the article I had the impression that vehicular traffic is curtailed on that island, so I think she may have had a false sense of security. The point is that the onus of notification & manoeuvering falls on those who are moving more quickly and some of the bikers who ride there now don’t seem to be up to the task.

  • #16159
    runnerdude wrote:
    Absolutely disgraceful.

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/20040924-9999-lz1s24bikepth.html

    When I saw “mauls” I picture a mountain lion on a bike jumping off and attacking a runner.

    Just plain stupid act.

  • #16059
    runnerdude wrote:
    Absolutely disgraceful.

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/20040924-9999-lz1s24bikepth.html

    When I saw “mauls” I picture a mountain lion on a bike jumping off and attacking a runner.

    Just plain stupid act.

  • #16160
    runnerdude wrote:

    I don’t want this to sound like I’m blaming the runner, but with the bike traffic and potential for drunk drivers on that one-lane road, runners should definitely run against traffic. You’d think an experienced runner would know this.

    I’m sure the runner in this case knew to run agains traffic when running on roads. From the article I had the impression that vehicular traffic is curtailed on that island, so I think she may have had a false sense of security. The point is that the onus of notification & manoeuvering falls on those who are moving more quickly and some of the bikers who ride there now don’t seem to be up to the task.

    Even on a road like that, she should be facing traffic when running. I think you nailed it with the “false sense of security”.

  • #16060
    runnerdude wrote:

    I don’t want this to sound like I’m blaming the runner, but with the bike traffic and potential for drunk drivers on that one-lane road, runners should definitely run against traffic. You’d think an experienced runner would know this.

    I’m sure the runner in this case knew to run agains traffic when running on roads. From the article I had the impression that vehicular traffic is curtailed on that island, so I think she may have had a false sense of security. The point is that the onus of notification & manoeuvering falls on those who are moving more quickly and some of the bikers who ride there now don’t seem to be up to the task.

    Even on a road like that, she should be facing traffic when running. I think you nailed it with the “false sense of security”.

  • #16161

    When I saw “mauls” I picture a mountain lion on a bike jumping off and attacking a runner.

    so, what would you call it, incidental contact? Please re-read the description of Tamara’s (an elite runner BTW) injuries & level of trauma. I think they constitute the equivalent of a mauling by a pit bull or a wild animal like a mountain lion.

  • #16061

    When I saw “mauls” I picture a mountain lion on a bike jumping off and attacking a runner.

    so, what would you call it, incidental contact? Please re-read the description of Tamara’s (an elite runner BTW) injuries & level of trauma. I think they constitute the equivalent of a mauling by a pit bull or a wild animal like a mountain lion.

  • #16162
    runnerdude wrote:
    I’m sure the runner in this case knew to run agains traffic when running on roads. From the article I had the impression that vehicular traffic is curtailed on that island, so I think she may have had a false sense of security.

    Then why wasn’t she running against traffic? There is always some vehicle traffic on Fiesta Island (unless there’s an event going on). According to the article, this happened on a Thursday evening. Since school is in session, there probably wasn’t much automobile traffic at that time, but I’m sure there was some. I don’t know why she would have any sense of security. According to the article, there have been many complaints about the cyclists who train there.

    runnerdude wrote:
    The point is that the onus of notification & manoeuvering falls on those who are moving more quickly and some of the bikers who ride there now don’t seem to be up to the task.

    I agree that the responsibility falls to the bikers; however, we need to learn from this incident that if those responsible don’t act safely, we need to take whatever steps are necessary to keep ourselves safe.

  • #16062
    runnerdude wrote:
    I’m sure the runner in this case knew to run agains traffic when running on roads. From the article I had the impression that vehicular traffic is curtailed on that island, so I think she may have had a false sense of security.

    Then why wasn’t she running against traffic? There is always some vehicle traffic on Fiesta Island (unless there’s an event going on). According to the article, this happened on a Thursday evening. Since school is in session, there probably wasn’t much automobile traffic at that time, but I’m sure there was some. I don’t know why she would have any sense of security. According to the article, there have been many complaints about the cyclists who train there.

    runnerdude wrote:
    The point is that the onus of notification & manoeuvering falls on those who are moving more quickly and some of the bikers who ride there now don’t seem to be up to the task.

    I agree that the responsibility falls to the bikers; however, we need to learn from this incident that if those responsible don’t act safely, we need to take whatever steps are necessary to keep ourselves safe.

  • #16163

    Ryan
    Keymaster
    runnerdude wrote:
    (an elite runner BTW)

    What difference does that make? This isn’t the first time you pointed this out. Would it have made a difference if she wasn’t elite? Is someone who is not elite less important or is it less of a big deal if this happens to a 4 hour marathoner instead of an elite?

  • #16063

    Ryan
    Keymaster
    runnerdude wrote:
    (an elite runner BTW)

    What difference does that make? This isn’t the first time you pointed this out. Would it have made a difference if she wasn’t elite? Is someone who is not elite less important or is it less of a big deal if this happens to a 4 hour marathoner instead of an elite?

  • #16164

    (an elite runner BTW)

    What difference does that make?

    Thanks for asking. When I first read the story, I didn’t think that I would feel differently had this happened to a runner with less competitive times or credentials. However, upon further review, it does make a difference to me. When it comes to track & field and road racing, elite runners are the stars of the show just as pro football, basketball, baseball, etc… players are the stars of their respective sports. I think that had Brett Favre been the victim of a hit & run accident (which is what we had here) a greater number of Packer fans would be similarly more upset than if a member of the general public were to be a vicim of the same incident.

  • #16064

    (an elite runner BTW)

    What difference does that make?

    Thanks for asking. When I first read the story, I didn’t think that I would feel differently had this happened to a runner with less competitive times or credentials. However, upon further review, it does make a difference to me. When it comes to track & field and road racing, elite runners are the stars of the show just as pro football, basketball, baseball, etc… players are the stars of their respective sports. I think that had Brett Favre been the victim of a hit & run accident (which is what we had here) a greater number of Packer fans would be similarly more upset than if a member of the general public were to be a vicim of the same incident.

  • #16165

    Ryan
    Keymaster
    runnerdude wrote:
    I think that had Brett Favre been the victim of a hit & run accident (which is what we had here) a greater number of Packer fans would be similarly more upset than if a member of the general public were to be a vicim of the same incident.

    A greater number of Packer fans would know about it and be outraged. I would hope, for the sake of the decency of this society (which I know can be questioned), those who knew and were outraged would be no more or less outraged regardless of who the victim was.

  • #16065

    Ryan
    Keymaster
    runnerdude wrote:
    I think that had Brett Favre been the victim of a hit & run accident (which is what we had here) a greater number of Packer fans would be similarly more upset than if a member of the general public were to be a vicim of the same incident.

    A greater number of Packer fans would know about it and be outraged. I would hope, for the sake of the decency of this society (which I know can be questioned), those who knew and were outraged would be no more or less outraged regardless of who the victim was.

  • #16166
    runnerdude wrote:
    I think that had Brett Favre been the victim of a hit & run accident (which is what we had here) a greater number of Packer fans would be similarly more upset than if a member of the general public were to be a vicim of the same incident.

    Here’s a quote from the article:

    Lave said the cyclist who hit her stopped to see if she was OK and apologized.

    It wasn’t a hit and run accident.

    I disagree with your reasoning that Lave being an elite runner should make a difference. If Favre were injured in an accident, more Packer fans would care than the general public. That’s true. However, I think the reason people on this forum are upset is because the victim is a runner; her elite status is not really the issue. As fellow runners we can relate to the dangerous situation she was in, and we understand the frustration that this injury/not being able to run will cause her. If she was a mid-pack runner, we’d still be upset with this accident. If she were a skateboarder or a walker, we wouldn’t even be discussing it.

  • #16066
    runnerdude wrote:
    I think that had Brett Favre been the victim of a hit & run accident (which is what we had here) a greater number of Packer fans would be similarly more upset than if a member of the general public were to be a vicim of the same incident.

    Here’s a quote from the article:

    Lave said the cyclist who hit her stopped to see if she was OK and apologized.

    It wasn’t a hit and run accident.

    I disagree with your reasoning that Lave being an elite runner should make a difference. If Favre were injured in an accident, more Packer fans would care than the general public. That’s true. However, I think the reason people on this forum are upset is because the victim is a runner; her elite status is not really the issue. As fellow runners we can relate to the dangerous situation she was in, and we understand the frustration that this injury/not being able to run will cause her. If she was a mid-pack runner, we’d still be upset with this accident. If she were a skateboarder or a walker, we wouldn’t even be discussing it.

  • #16167

    I disagree with your reasoning that Lave being an elite runner should make a difference.

    Ok, first I didn’t say it “should” make a difference, rather that it made a difference to me. And, my reasoning is that a runner like Lave can make a greater contribution to the sport of road running than a non-elite runner, so it is therefore more tragic that she was injured this way than a non-elite runner.

    As far as it not being a hit-and-run accident, ok, so the biker stopped and asked her if she was ok. Big deal. You forgot to mention that he also berated her for not running on the sand and then he took off without seeing if he could help get her some medical attention when she was obviously injured (the article mentions that she was covered in blood).

  • #16067

    I disagree with your reasoning that Lave being an elite runner should make a difference.

    Ok, first I didn’t say it “should” make a difference, rather that it made a difference to me. And, my reasoning is that a runner like Lave can make a greater contribution to the sport of road running than a non-elite runner, so it is therefore more tragic that she was injured this way than a non-elite runner.

    As far as it not being a hit-and-run accident, ok, so the biker stopped and asked her if she was ok. Big deal. You forgot to mention that he also berated her for not running on the sand and then he took off without seeing if he could help get her some medical attention when she was obviously injured (the article mentions that she was covered in blood).

  • #16168

    Anonymous
    runnerdude wrote:

    When I saw “mauls” I picture a mountain lion on a bike jumping off and attacking a runner.

    so, what would you call it, incidental contact? Please re-read the description of Tamara’s (an elite runner BTW) injuries & level of trauma. I think they constitute the equivalent of a mauling by a pit bull or a wild animal like a mountain lion.

    in addition to the dictionary definition, words have connotations. When I see maul I think of animal attacks. Maybe that is because I live in the West where that happens too often. The other thing that comes to mind is in boxing where one fighter “mauls” another.

    In this case, the runner was struck by the cyclist accidently. I infer a mauling to have a certain level of intent behind it. A mauling to me would have been if the cyclist had gotten off the bike after striking the woman and then started beating on her.

    Semantics maybe, but words do paint a picture.

  • #16068

    Anonymous
    runnerdude wrote:

    When I saw “mauls” I picture a mountain lion on a bike jumping off and attacking a runner.

    so, what would you call it, incidental contact? Please re-read the description of Tamara’s (an elite runner BTW) injuries & level of trauma. I think they constitute the equivalent of a mauling by a pit bull or a wild animal like a mountain lion.

    in addition to the dictionary definition, words have connotations. When I see maul I think of animal attacks. Maybe that is because I live in the West where that happens too often. The other thing that comes to mind is in boxing where one fighter “mauls” another.

    In this case, the runner was struck by the cyclist accidently. I infer a mauling to have a certain level of intent behind it. A mauling to me would have been if the cyclist had gotten off the bike after striking the woman and then started beating on her.

    Semantics maybe, but words do paint a picture.

  • #16169
    Anonymous wrote:
    in addition to the dictionary definition, words have connotations. When I see maul I think of animal attacks.

    For what it’s worth, I had the same thought.

  • #16069
    Anonymous wrote:
    in addition to the dictionary definition, words have connotations. When I see maul I think of animal attacks.

    For what it’s worth, I had the same thought.

  • #16170

    When I see maul I think of animal attacks.

    well, given the extent of the runner’s injuries and trauma, I consider what happened to her to be a form of mauling.

    In this case, the runner was struck by the cyclist accidently

    I’m sorry, but I don’t believe this. There were NO cars on the road when this happened and even if the biker in question was part of a pack, riding at 25 mph would have given him plenty of time to see a pedestrian from even just 1/4 of a mile away. Plus, if it was really an “accident” I think he would have done more than ask if she was ok, tell her she should have been off the road and then ride off. Here is my hypothesis: Biker sees a runner ahead and gets irritated that he has to share the road with a one. Biker decides that he’s going to clip the runner to intimidate her and discourage her from running on that road. Biker miscalculates how close he actually comes to the runner and plows into her. Biker then gets away to avoid identification and therefore civil or criminal charges.

  • #16070

    When I see maul I think of animal attacks.

    well, given the extent of the runner’s injuries and trauma, I consider what happened to her to be a form of mauling.

    In this case, the runner was struck by the cyclist accidently

    I’m sorry, but I don’t believe this. There were NO cars on the road when this happened and even if the biker in question was part of a pack, riding at 25 mph would have given him plenty of time to see a pedestrian from even just 1/4 of a mile away. Plus, if it was really an “accident” I think he would have done more than ask if she was ok, tell her she should have been off the road and then ride off. Here is my hypothesis: Biker sees a runner ahead and gets irritated that he has to share the road with a one. Biker decides that he’s going to clip the runner to intimidate her and discourage her from running on that road. Biker miscalculates how close he actually comes to the runner and plows into her. Biker then gets away to avoid identification and therefore civil or criminal charges.

  • #16171
    runnerdude wrote:
    I’m sorry, but I don’t believe this. There were NO cars on the road when this happened and even if the biker in question was part of a pack, riding at 25 mph would have given him plenty of time to see a pedestrian from even just 1/4 of a mile away. Plus, if it was really an “accident” I think he would have done more than ask if she was ok, tell her she should have been off the road and then ride off. Here is my hypothesis: Biker sees a runner ahead and gets irritated that he has to share the road with a one. Biker decides that he’s going to clip the runner to intimidate her and discourage her from running on that road. Biker miscalculates how close he actually comes to the runner and plows into her. Biker then gets away to avoid identification and therefore civil or criminal charges.

    It’s a pretty big jump to reach that conclusion, especially since you weren’t there, you don’t know the people involved and you don’t know the area. How can you be sure that the runner wasn’t moving farther into the bikers’ route than was prudent in an attempt to show them that she couldn’t be intimidated?

    On the other hand, here’s a statement from an eyewitness:

    “Everyone was hugging the left-hand side of the road, barely missing her,” said Oya. “Riders saw her and swung wide right. He just didn’t see her quick enough, tried to get out of the way and hit her.”

    Sounds like an accident to me.

  • #16071
    runnerdude wrote:
    I’m sorry, but I don’t believe this. There were NO cars on the road when this happened and even if the biker in question was part of a pack, riding at 25 mph would have given him plenty of time to see a pedestrian from even just 1/4 of a mile away. Plus, if it was really an “accident” I think he would have done more than ask if she was ok, tell her she should have been off the road and then ride off. Here is my hypothesis: Biker sees a runner ahead and gets irritated that he has to share the road with a one. Biker decides that he’s going to clip the runner to intimidate her and discourage her from running on that road. Biker miscalculates how close he actually comes to the runner and plows into her. Biker then gets away to avoid identification and therefore civil or criminal charges.

    It’s a pretty big jump to reach that conclusion, especially since you weren’t there, you don’t know the people involved and you don’t know the area. How can you be sure that the runner wasn’t moving farther into the bikers’ route than was prudent in an attempt to show them that she couldn’t be intimidated?

    On the other hand, here’s a statement from an eyewitness:

    “Everyone was hugging the left-hand side of the road, barely missing her,” said Oya. “Riders saw her and swung wide right. He just didn’t see her quick enough, tried to get out of the way and hit her.”

    Sounds like an accident to me.

  • #16172

    I see that her being an elite runner matters as well. But in the sense that she should have know to run facing traffic – as dumb as I am about running (and you all know it) I run facing traffic when on roads – even if I only see one or two cars during the entire run.

  • #16072

    I see that her being an elite runner matters as well. But in the sense that she should have know to run facing traffic – as dumb as I am about running (and you all know it) I run facing traffic when on roads – even if I only see one or two cars during the entire run.

  • #16173

    here’s a statement from an eyewitness

    wasn’t that eyewitness another biker? How do you not know that his “account” makes it seem like an accident out of solidarity with his fellow rider?

  • #16073

    here’s a statement from an eyewitness

    wasn’t that eyewitness another biker? How do you not know that his “account” makes it seem like an accident out of solidarity with his fellow rider?

  • #16174
    runnerdude wrote:
    wasn’t that eyewitness another biker? How do you not know that his “account” makes it seem like an accident out of solidarity with his fellow rider?

    Here’s another quote from the same guy:

    Said Oya, a runner who occasionally rides with the Thursday cyclists, “(The cyclists) are taking (workouts) way too seriously. They’re real aggressive and don’t like to share the road. They have their race faces on and they’re trying to do dangerous maneuvers.

    “I get harassed because I’m an outsider. They’re just (jerks).”

    This witness doesn’t sound like the type who would say anything to show solidarity to these bikers.

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