Genetics… pff

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This topic contains 30 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  Tyrone 14 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #1078

    Tyrone
    Member

    I agree, there are some things that stop people from being the best. Completely flat feet might… bone structure problems.. ect

    Other than these somewhat big things.. can something else actually cause you not to be able to be the best?

    Time constrants don’t count… obviously they are huge barriers, but if you could get past time constrants .. you could train 3 times a day.. then i think anyone can be a champion, anyone who is willing to push through, even when your on a plateau thats lasted a really long time.

  • #12877

    Woody
    Member

    I just think everybody’s champion level is a slightly different time

  • #12878

    Tyrone
    Member

    I mean anyone with a body that can run and get there marathons down to 2:30 dont have to be worried about genetics kicking in..

    … dont take this the wrong way, but i think its complete BS… it is just an excuse for those who never achieved to where they wanted…

    If you have a job or what not, and cant devote your life to running, obviously then you can’t become great, or at least it would be harder… and if you have a family it becomes probably 10x harder..

    But if you can run a 2:30 marathon and your not over 30 … theres nothing stopping you.. only your own mind… and foolish ideas of a barrier..

    Plateaus exsist, and they happen longer and more often the closer you get to the ultimate… but if that doesn’t stop you or make you think its the fault of “genetics” then you will be the next Paul Target(sp?) or Geb..

    EVEN IF YOUR WHITE

  • #12879

    Woody
    Member

    TY Baby-love ,

    are you pulling the race card 😀

    I’m all with you my man! But I think you would have a hard time telling all those stuck between 2:23-2:30 that their not trying hard enough or it’s all mental barriers. I think there are alot more runners running 100-120 MPW then people think, with the right attitude.

  • #12880

    Zeke
    Member

    I’m all with you my man!

    Woody, I thought you were saying that genetics IS a factor, while Tyrone says that genetics ARE NOT a factor.

  • #12881

    Zeke
    Member

    Other than these somewhat big things.. can something else actually cause you not to be able to be the best?

    What about percent of slow twitch fibers vs. fast twitch fibers?

    Don’t you think certain genetics dispositions favor certain sports? To be the best in sports like basketball, football, jockeys, body building, sprinters, etc. you have to have certain genes. Why isn’t distance running the same?

    I once read a great explanation regarding Lance Armstrong to help explain how awesome he is to those that just don’t understand. He’s every bit of a genetic freak as Shaq, you just can’t see it, like you can with Shaq.

  • #12882

    Double
    Member

    everyone is more than capable of accomplishing goals way beyond their dreams. Some runners will strive so far that they will beat runners who have a better predisposition for the sport genetically. That’s the beauty of hard work.

    I have to admit it though, given all the time, equipment, coaching, nutritionists, massage therapy, et cetera, I could never run the 100m in 9.9, or a marathon in 2:05. Not sure what the limit is, but safe to say it isn’t, nor has it ever been close to those parameters.

    This does not discourage me. In fact, everytime a new record is set, or a close contemporary PRs, my personal range tends to expand.

    I’m having more fun running now than I ever have. I get big ideas, chase them awhile and then reality sets in. I take shortcuts, try new things, race differently, get sick, get on a hot streak, talk trash, get humbled, etc., all the time. I only really have one thing left I’d like to do in running and that’s not that important.

  • #12883

    Zeke
    Member

    everyone is more than capable of accomplishing goals way beyond their dreams. Some runners will strive so far that they will beat runners who have a better predisposition for the sport genetically. That’s the beauty of hard work.

    I agree with you here.

    I only really have one thing left I’d like to do in running and that’s not that important.

    Would you like to share?

  • #12884

    Double
    Member

    I’d like to go sub 2:40 in the marathon. I really felt I was there this summer before commiting to the 100k in Taiwan. I just had a couple good races and strong workouts that “told” me I was there. All while I was training through.

    Believe it or not, the biggest indicator was during a difficult week of training. It was after work and I had a specific window of time to train in. I went to the track w/ it being in the 80’s, no warm-up, and realed off a 20k at 6:12 pace. Not a difficult workout in itself, but with everything else it was huge for me.

  • #12885

    Genetics…. We don’t need no stinking genetics.

  • #12886

    Woody
    Member

    We don’t need no stinkin badges either 😀 ha.

  • #12887

    Woody
    Member

    I all with him on the third Paragraph

  • #12888

    Ryan
    Keymaster
    Tyrone wrote:
    Other than these somewhat big things.. can something else actually cause you not to be able to be the best?

    Physiologically, yes. However, most are things that people assume they have but haven’t bothered to find out if they do or not. Many people assume they have things that limit them from this time or that place and use that as an excuse to not try. In the end, you don’t know if you can do something or not unless you actually try.

    Tyrone wrote:
    I mean anyone with a body that can run and get there marathons down to 2:30 dont have to be worried about genetics kicking in

    Here’s another angle for you. Nearly any male without severe physiological impediments, if he begins training in the right way at early enough of an age can run 2:30 or faster. This is the angle I would take for this. I don’t think anyone who runs 2:30 has no limits. I’d go from another angle and say there are very few young males who have limiting factors keeping them from running 2:30.

    Woody wrote:
    I think there are alot more runners running 100-120 MPW then people think, with the right attitude.

    Woody, I have to disagree here. I think there are a lot fewer runners doing 100-120 mpw, as well as getting in all the other variables needed for optimal race performance (remember, mileage is only one factor), than you think.

    Double wrote:
    everyone is more than capable of accomplishing goals way beyond their dreams. Some runners will strive so far that they will beat runners who have a better predisposition for the sport genetically. That’s the beauty of hard work.

    Yes! Almost nobody in the world knows their full potential in distance running. Most are selling themselves far short. They claim they can’t run sub-3, so why bother working hard to break 3:30? What they don’t know is maybe they are capable of breaking 2:30 if they would do what it takes.

  • #12889

    Anonymous

    I had often wondered why the Russian Women are so much faster.

    This is how they make a living. They have the time and the mpw.

    I have long gaps in my running career. Could these gaps have slowed me down?

    I am lucky if I get my mpw up to 60.

    I do have big bones. My average weight is 122, height 5’3″ but I do look like I weigh less then that. If I were to get down to 110, I would look emmeciated. Then maybe I would be faster? What is the factor? How many seconds per pound you add on per mile?

    I think genetics has alot to do with World Class performances. I don’t think I am genetically gifted. If I work hard, eat right and train with the right personel who keep motivation high, then I may break 3 hours.

    Laura

  • #12890

    Anonymous

    It looks like I will no longer be a guest. Yes, I wrote the message above. My last message as a guest.

  • #12891

    Tyrone
    Member
    Zeke wrote:

    Other than these somewhat big things.. can something else actually cause you not to be able to be the best?

    What about percent of slow twitch fibers vs. fast twitch fibers?

    Don’t you think certain genetics dispositions favor certain sports? To be the best in sports like basketball, football, jockeys, body building, sprinters, etc. you have to have certain genes. Why isn’t distance running the same?

    I once read a great explanation regarding Lance Armstrong to help explain how awesome he is to those that just don’t understand. He’s every bit of a genetic freak as Shaq, you just can’t see it, like you can with Shaq.

    that would decide your race distance not your ability to be the best..

    90% fast twitch.. 100-400m for you

    90% slow twitch marathon+ for you

    this is my point.. doesnt matter what your made of, you can be the best, just gotta work with your body, not against it.. ie pick the right race..

  • #12892

    Tyrone
    Member
    Double wrote:
    everyone is more than capable of accomplishing goals way beyond their dreams. Some runners will strive so far that they will beat runners who have a better predisposition for the sport genetically. That’s the beauty of hard work.

    I have to admit it though, given all the time, equipment, coaching, nutritionists, massage therapy, et cetera, I could never run the 100m in 9.9, or a marathon in 2:05. Not sure what the limit is, but safe to say it isn’t, nor has it ever been close to those parameters.

    This does not discourage me. In fact, everytime a new record is set, or a close contemporary PRs, my personal range tends to expand.

    I’m having more fun running now than I ever have. I get big ideas, chase them awhile and then reality sets in. I take shortcuts, try new things, race differently, get sick, get on a hot streak, talk trash, get humbled, etc., all the time. I only really have one thing left I’d like to do in running and that’s not that important.

    so run the 10k in under 29 minutes.. or faster… marathon and 100m may not be your race..

  • #12893

    Tyrone
    Member
    Miles and Miles wrote:
    Genetics…. We don’t need no stinking genetics.

    thank you…

    Its all about training right, and keeping your mindset…

    May you run many really freakin fast marthons mr. miles!

    faster than you ever thought possible…

  • #12894

    Tyrone
    Member

    Here’s another angle for you. Nearly any male without severe physiological impediments, if he begins training in the right way at early enough of an age can run 2:30 or faster. This is the angle I would take for this. I don’t think anyone who runs 2:30 has no limits. I’d go from another angle and say there are very few young males who have limiting factors keeping them from running 2:30.

    Good idea, i didnt know how to put it.. you put it how i was thinking 🙂

  • #12895

    Tyrone
    Member

    Yes! Almost nobody in the world knows their full potential in distance running. Most are selling themselves far short. They claim they can’t run sub-3, so why bother working hard to break 3:30? What they don’t know is maybe they are capable of breaking 2:30 if they would do what it takes.

    Wuwu, good idea again 🙂

  • #12896

    Tyrone
    Member
    Anonymous wrote:
    I had often wondered why the Russian Women are so much faster.

    This is how they make a living. They have the time and the mpw.

    I have long gaps in my running career. Could these gaps have slowed me down?

    I am lucky if I get my mpw up to 60.

    I do have big bones. My average weight is 122, height 5’3″ but I do look like I weigh less then that. If I were to get down to 110, I would look emmeciated. Then maybe I would be faster? What is the factor? How many seconds per pound you add on per mile?

    I think genetics has alot to do with World Class performances. I don’t think I am genetically gifted. If I work hard, eat right and train with the right personel who keep motivation high, then I may break 3 hours.

    Laura

    Its not so much about weight as it is about keeping basic strength, and not much more than that, and keeping your body fat % low.

    gaps obviously take away miles that could have been in your background..

    and if you cant get above 60mpw look for the reasons why..

    are you going to fast for too much of it?… do you need to slow all of it down and try go up with slow miles first…

    shoes… form… what your running on… ect

  • #12897

    Tyrone
    Member

    http://www.mariusbakken.com/

    check this website out everyone…. go to kenyian corner, and see how they do lots of AT/LT and just below training for years before they start peaking..

  • #12898

    Tyrone
    Member
    Woody wrote:
    TY Baby-love ,

    are you pulling the race card 😀

    I’m all with you my man! But I think you would have a hard time telling all those stuck between 2:23-2:30 that their not trying hard enough or it’s all mental barriers. I think there are alot more runners running 100-120 MPW then people think, with the right attitude.

    I might be pulling the card.. but I’ve never used it in the context of a white guy pulling the race card.. so you tell me 🙂

    I’m just saying that the americans(white/black/other) can run just as fast as the africans(Geb/EL G Kenyians/morrocains ect)

  • #12899

    Double
    Member

    Ahh….youth. Tyrone my friend, you are on the right track. The journey is what it is all about and you sound prepared to take it. Some of us have peeked down that road and know what is required. I for one am anxious to hear of your progression.

    Feel free to search for insights. I personally know some of the posters and somethings about others. Amongst you are a former state champ, an OT qualifier, two people who have made national teams, a two sport college all-american and Pski the legend. I think most have replied on this thread.

    Now go makes us believers.

  • #12900

    magpie
    Member
    Tyrone wrote:
    I agree, there are some things that stop people from being the best. Completely flat feet might… bone structure problems.. ect

    Other than these somewhat big things.. can something else actually cause you not to be able to be the best?

    Time constrants don’t count… obviously they are huge barriers, but if you could get past time constrants .. you could train 3 times a day.. then i think anyone can be a champion, anyone who is willing to push through, even when your on a plateau thats lasted a really long time.

    perhaps this has been already mentioned: a little thing known as body type. mindset cannot make up for an incomplete set of tools. even then, i could not picture an ectomorph such as manute bol or shawn bradley being a good runner, distance or otherwise.

  • #12901

    Zeke
    Member

    that would decide your race distance not your ability to be the best..

    90% fast twitch.. 100-400m for you

    90% slow twitch marathon+ for you

    this is my point.. doesnt matter what your made of, you can be the best, just gotta work with your body, not against it.. ie pick the right race.

    Tyrone,

    I don’t understand your agrument. One minute you say that genetics is not a factor. Then the next minute you tell me it decides my race distance.

    You said that if I have 90% fast twitch fibers, then I should run the 100-400m. However, if genetics were not a factor I should be able to be a 2:20 marathoner, even with all those fast twitch fibers. Conversely, someone with 90% slow twitch fibers should be able to run, what about a 10.5 sec 100m and 46 second 400m, right? All they have to do is train hard and really want it. After all, isn’t that all there is to being a good runner?

  • #12902

    Tyrone
    Member

    good point.

    I think what i meant at that time, and what i would have posted now is, it would take the least amount of work to be good if you go with the race your muscles push you towards, if 10k feels easier than marathon and easier than 5k, then going with that could be your best bet.

    But i have seen claims that the 50/50 slowtwitch/fastwitch type that typically run middle distance- 10ks will one day be the marathoners that break 2:00 or better..

    So i think that if your not built for a certain race you just have to train a lot more and a lot longer to get really good at it.

    If im 90% fast twitch it will take a lot longer to make those muscles fibers have enough endurance to complete anything longer than 400m probably..

    So what im saying is although genetics may predispose us to certain race distances, they dont decide weither or not you can be the best at any race distance…

    those people that were mentioned above are very buff people… they lifted to get buff… if they would have chosen to run they would look a lot different. Maybe now they will never be great runners, but they certainly could have been.

    there is only one situation that i can see someone having a lot of trouble being the best at any race..

    a very very high count of slow twitch fibers… arthur lydiard said basic speed is a limiting factor, i dont know if that is right or not, it might just be that gains are a lot slower or seem a lot slower compared to the fast twitch guy whos running for more endurance.

    1/10th of a second off a 56second 400m pr doesnt seem like much, but it is improvement, so maybe the basic speed argument is wrong too?

    My main idea is this, I really hate it when someone uses genetics as there excuse.. why not just train more/more intense, or change something.. if your weak, or slow for basic speed, do hill work/sprint work. If you are a 44 second 400m guy, then maintain that and start running long distance runs, or if you have been and dont see any improvement either run longer, run doubles (more miles) or do more AT stuff ( Progression, LT/AT intervals, Tempo ect)

    And even if you hit a plateau for a long time, as most runners do, why give up or just accept this as your ultimate time..

    Try some over compensation training or just wait it out and enjoy running rather than prs for that little while.

    maybe im just a foolish young man who isnt even close to his peak ( 18 ) that needs to be there to know whats going on…. but i know that believing has helped me tremendiously.

    i can explain how/why/when ect in more detail if anyone wants to hear it.

  • #12903

    Woody
    Member

    [quote

    ]My main idea is this, I really hate it when someone uses genetics as there excuse

    Ty,

    Your attitude is awesome! I think your taking it that we are saying you can’t do it . You might be able to , you’ll never know unless you try.

    But if you think everybody is equal and it’s just who outworks the other, your in for a rude awakening. I will agree that hardwork will overcome talent. You can outwork others and beat them if they have more talent then you. We have all been around people who don’t have to work that hard to be better than average, and then we have also been around people who work their ass off just to be as good or a little better than the other.

    I feel There are a lot more underachievers than overachievers. So yes hardwork will pay off.

    Explain to me why if two people are doing the same amount of workload, same mental toughness, ETC. ETC. Why does one run faster Then another. They both found their event for their body, they both work hard with no limits attitude , But one wins or runs faster then the other.

    Do you think Cullpepper who ran Sub 2:10 at Chicago Can beat Tergat or Kanooch. If he doesn’t, is it becuase Cullpepper didn’t want it bad enough or work hard enough. I don’t feel the guy or gal who works the hardest always wins, My example would be Radcliffe and Dnreba why does Radcliffe all of a sudden smoke all the women including Catherine. Is she just outworking all of them , Like I said before go tell all the others they are being outworked and see what they say especially at that level. He or she might win their personal battle or personal best. But there are some things you can’t control —-stuff your born with . That doesn’t mean you can’t try or push yourself to do YOUR best. But when that limit is reached maybe for you 2:10, then don’t beat yourself up saying your not working hard enough.

    Woody

  • #12904

    Ryan
    Keymaster
    Tyrone wrote:
    But i have seen claims that the 50/50 slowtwitch/fastwitch type that typically run middle distance- 10ks will one day be the marathoners that break 2:00 or better..

    Very common misconception. I remember the talk about what Geb was going to do to the marathon when he moved up. A lot of people viewed marathoners as second tier runners on the world class level and Geb was not just first tier, he was the best of the best. He was going to shatter the world record, win big over the best competition, going to do incredible things that would take the marathon to a whole new level. We all know none of that happened. He found out that, while he was the best of the best in the 10k, that did not automatically translate to a great marathon.

    Tyrone wrote:
    So i think that if your not built for a certain race you just have to train a lot more and a lot longer to get really good at it.

    If only it were that simple. As someone who never, not even in college, broke 60 in the 400, do you believe I could really be a good 400 meter runner if I trained a lot more and a lot longer? It simply isn’t going to happen, no matter what I do.

    Tyrone wrote:
    So what im saying is although genetics may predispose us to certain race distances, they dont decide weither or not you can be the best at any race distance…

    I would say they don’t decide whether you can be very good at distances of 5k and up but they do decide whether you can be the best.

    Tyrone wrote:
    My main idea is this, I really hate it when someone uses genetics as there excuse.. why not just train more/more intense, or change something.. if your weak, or slow for basic speed, do hill work/sprint work. If you are a 44 second 400m guy, then maintain that and start running long distance runs, or if you have been and dont see any improvement either run longer, run doubles (more miles) or do more AT stuff ( Progression, LT/AT intervals, Tempo ect)

    And even if you hit a plateau for a long time, as most runners do, why give up or just accept this as your ultimate time..

    Try some over compensation training or just wait it out and enjoy running rather than prs for that little while.

    While I love your attitude here and I’m sure most people here know how much I agree with this attitude, I think you’re taking it a step too far. I agree that many people, probably nearly all, underestimate their abilities and claim that they are not capable of something they very likely are very capable of because of this mystical “talent” thing. However, there is some reason out there that only a handful of runners ever set world records and only a relative handful of those who train as hard as their bodies will allow run within 95% of those world records. At some point, there are variables that are out of our control. While I think it’s a shame that so many people blame those variables before they come into play, I think we have to be careful that we don’t discount those variables totally while, at the same time, not letting our understanding that those variables exist scare us away from trying to find the limits of our individual performance potentials.

  • #12905

    Zeke
    Member

    But if you think everybody is equal and it’s just who outworks the other, your in for a rude awakening. I will agree that hardwork will overcome talent. You can outwork others and beat them if they have more talent then you. We have all been around people who don’t have to work that hard to be better than average, and then we have also been around people who work their ass off just to be as good or a little better than the other.

    Thanks, Ryan. This is exactly what I’m trying to say. I’m getting tired of “everyone” acting like all you have to do is run 140 mpw and you’ll run 2:20.

    I also agree about people setting limits on themselves, even though they may not be maximizing their training. I remember reading awhile ago about the “7% rule”. Basically you take your PRs and knock 7% off of them to determine a longer-range goal. For example, if my 10K PR is 35:00 my goal would be 32:30. If that sounds like too big of a stretch, work backwards from there, like maybe 33:00 seems more likely. It’s kind of off topic, but I think it’s a good way for setting aggressive goals (maybe something you’d like to achieve in a year or two).

  • #12906

    pski
    Member

    I agree with everyone that young Tyrone has the PERFECT ATTITTUDE!! He also has a base of knowledge at a young age where you say, GO GET EM, and the SKY may truly be the limits.

    Tyrone, the problem with a lot of us middle age wonders on this site is not only genetics, but where and when we came from. I’ll use myslef as an example. Grew up with no coached sports in my backround, or ignorant if you will. Was always considered SLOW. I found this to be true as even if it meant getting my ass whipped, I couldn’t outrun the kid about to try and kick my ass. Or trying to outrun someone chasing me after I broke their car window, and getting caught. Hey, this is the ultimate in motivation to run hard and FAST. I always got caught, spent playground life of pitching, first base, QB and shooting 3’s (worth 2 back then). Add in the fact I was raised with two chain smoking parents!

    Next, join the Army and PR in the 2 mile in 12:20. I thought I was FLYING!! This came at the end of Basic at age 20. Man, what I’d give to have a little knowledge back then. I knew nothing, didn’t even know what a race was or that they were out there.

    Fast forward, Age 33, 205 lbs, out of shape, heading for high blood pressure and a premature death. Begin to just run.

    In one year, ran a marathon for kicks on a long run of 10 miles. remember racing my friend Jamie Walz that summer , breaking 70 minutes for 10 miles, just us. We were elated! Marathon, 3:20.19, cruising in like it was a walk in the park. From there I start to read, study and learn about RUNNING at age 35.

    At 40 I have clocked times I never thought possible. Despite work, two kids, a wife, a fix it up house. These are not excuse my friend, it’s just LIFE. If I made running my life, I’m sure I could get better than the 2:50 marathon, 17:57 5K, 3:57 50k, 1:16.52 20k, 29:36 5 mi, etc. But now at 41, you just KNOW, where you can and can’t go and accept it to a certain degree.

    The guy on this site that has that Talent you speak of is Kooch. But he just can’t seem to have that window of luck to keep him from getting sick or injured during training in order to capitalize on it. That one element and he would throw up some monster times or could have. Now he’s hitting or is 43 and another clock is in play.

    A great comparison here may be DD an myself training for Lakefront. We did the same program. I may have ran comparably harder in training if you saw us at the end of our mile repeats. We started long runs in the middle of the week at 3:00 am, (together). Race day in great conditons saw us finish 5 minutes apart (of course DD won!). Training with DD MADE me a 2:50 marathoner, and his 2:45 was just his beginning.

    Now not only does DD have a running backround in life, I’m convinced even on our level he has some genetics working too. I see how the guy is put together also. Legs like machines built in the hills of PA, thick from the waist down, really a power runner if therre ever was one. Now with all that, he’s chasing KOLB, STEFANOVIC, and the ULTRA WORLD!

    Every battle out there is waged for different reasons. No doubt very few have the circumstances that would let them explore their absolute best. It’s no surprise Lance Armstrong is divorced, the surprise is how long that marriage lasted at all.

    I confess I do stop and wonder sometimes, “What could have been?” But I keep that short and stay satisfied with all the blessings running have provided without it turning into a curse.

    I’m done, PSKI

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