Hey Randy…

Welcome! Forums Running Forum Hey Randy…

This topic contains 11 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  Zeke 13 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #1290

    Zeke
    Member

    How can you run 6 x 1 mile reps in an average of 6:36 and say you can’t touch Born2Run’s 20:10 5k time?

    It seems to me that you could run sub-20 right now.

  • #13761

    randys
    Member

    I know! I was thinking that over the last couple of days too! I was actually shocked by the numbers when I got home on Tuesday.

    It was’nt until last night that I figured out that if I can hold that pace for 5k I am damm close to 20 minutes. I feel REALLY GOOD about that.

    I guess the aerobic training all winter has done me good. Even better is the fact that I was not pushing the workout. It felt comfortable.

    It has given me a huge boost in confidence heading into my race in 6 weeks.

    Randy

  • #13762

    Zeke
    Member

    Glad to hear things are coming around. I still think you’d have a great summer of road racing if you wanted to pursue that.

  • #13763

    danm
    Member

    First of all good job on the miles. But I thought I read that you took a mile jog rest(?)

    If that is true I would try to cut the rest down to about 400 meters. Obviously you will need to adjust the pace for the repeats.

    In marathon training the interval phase is an attempt to increase the stroke volume of your heart while teaching your body to clear lactic acid.

    You will be running much faster than your LT pace and will actually be lowering your LT level (which is bad for a marathoner).

    Like I posted before the goal is to get your HR up to a high level and try to keep it there without letting it come down to low and getting to much rest. The key is to balance how fast you run the intervals with how much rest you take to get the perfect stroke volume enhancments.

    So for the 800 examples from the other post, if you take too long of a rest you will run them way too hard, rest too long and your HR will return to near resting. Because you will be near a resting state it will take you almost the whole next 800 to get back to a high enough HR. This see- sawing of Lactic acid accumulation and rest is not what a marathoner wants.

    Mile repeats are good to do for a marathoner as well but the same principle applies. Since the distance is further you get more time spent up at a high HR so you can take a little longer rest but not too much. 400 is optimal.

    I hope this makes sense. Other methods for interval training apply to other distances you might train for.

    Dan

  • #13764

    Ryan
    Keymaster
    danm wrote:
    You will be running much faster than your LT pace and will actually be lowering your LT level (which is bad for a marathoner).

    I’ve seen you state this a few times recently but have never heard of this before. Is there a reference you’re basing this statement off of? From everything I’ve seen, you can improve your LT whether you are training faster or slower than your LT, although the rates of improvement may vary.

  • #13765

    danm
    Member

    Tons of research.

    You cannot really train your LT and move it up by running faster than it. The goal is to constantly be working below it pushing it up.

    You’ve probably read this as well…

    http://www.ffh.us/cn/part4.htm

    Joe, in the Hadd example never trained faster than his LT in the first 20 weeks yet ran a 1:11 HM as a training race.

    Down near the bottom of the page he is talking about three runners and their lactate thresholds and how the goal is to have an LT that doesn’t occur until relatively fast paces then starts to curve up slowly. As the pace gets faster, the lactate level increase faster. Finding where your curve starts to go up is the key. Hadd says:

    To move the lactate curve to the right, we need to go wayyy back to just before the curve begins to turn, and train both at the point, and below (slower). Not faster. If we do this right, in six weeks the curve will move and we will be able to run faster, more easily (ie: aerobically and not by calling up some anaerobic energy).

  • #13766

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    I’m definitely not discounting the point Hadd makes. In order to build your fitness, you have to start from the bottom up. I liked Woody’s analogy of the tube of toothpaste. However, you made it sound like training above one’s LT is actually detrimental to one’s LT. This is definitely not the case. In fact, training both above and below LT are needed in order to maximize one’s LT. Of course, great gains can be made by training below one’s LT and these gains should be made before moving above, which is why it’s best to go above your LT as you are building to your peak. However, to suggest that going above one’s LT is bad for one’s LT is not quite right. To carry on Woody’s analogy, that would be like saying squeezing from the top of the tube is always bad. Well, at some point if you don’t squeeze from the top of the tube, you’re not going to be getting all of the toothpaste out. Squeeze from the bottom first and get all of that out, then work your way up.

    http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0823.htm

    Basically, it means that the endurance athlete should no longer attempt to optimize lactate threshold simply by developing rather stolid muscle cells which stubbornly stay away from the practice of producing significant quantities of lactate. Although that is not a bad idea, it is also necessary to train muscle fibres in the fine art of clearing lactate from interstitial fluids and the blood. To do that, it is essential to expose those fibres to rather lofty lactate levels. Tempo training, i.e., working continuously for 20 to 30 minutes at lactate-threshold intensity, won’t do, since it takes place at the precise level of effort at which lactate production is JUST BEGINNING to take off. Instead, one must burn along at higher-than-lactate-threshold speeds during workouts in order to set a fire under the lactate-clearing process and lift lactate threshold as much as possible.

  • #13767

    danm
    Member

    Training above your LT IS detrimental to your LT level. LT level and your ability to clear Lactate are two separate issues. You must become efficient at both of these mechanisms. Hence periodization.

    Now remember, what we are talking about here is training someone for a marathon. In Phase I the goal is to raise the LT as high as possible. When someone has a bad relationship between the shorter distances up to the marathon, the person is said to be poorly trained aerobically. For the first phase the description Woody is referring to is going back and starting to squeeze fitness out of the tube of toothpaste at the bottom.

    For people like me, I trained by squeezing it out of the middle. I wasn’t maximizing my aerobic development.

    You really have two engines, your aerobic engine and anerobic engine. How they get trained and how they interact with each other during different training cycles is something you must know to be trained completely.

    A top marathoner and a top 10k runner do not have the same LT levels. The marathoner will always be better. It is the nature of how you train for the events that determine this.

    I like a lot of what Owen says but some of it he misses on and LT training is off a bit.

  • #13768

    Ryan
    Keymaster
    danm wrote:
    LT level and your ability to clear Lactate are two separate issues.

    You and I must be using different definitions of LT. LT is the point at which the lactate levels in your blood spike, roughly speaking. If your body can efficiently clear lactate, your blood lactate levels won’t spike as soon even though your working muscles are releasing more lactate into the blood because non-working muscles will grab it right away and convert it back to fuel. Improve your body’s ability to clear lactate and you are pushing back the point at which your blood lactate levels will spike, hence raising your LT.

  • #13769

    danm
    Member

    you are right we are talking about two separate things. Raising your true LT level can only be done by pushing it from below.

    Teaching your muscles how to clear lactate, which can be done by incorporating paces faster than LT, does not raise your LT.

    A great workout for this is Hadd’s 200/200.

    Goes like this:

    10-15 minutes easy warm up

    6-7 minutes at 80% (usually you use a HRM and determine this)

    3-5 x 100 strides

    25 laps (10k) of 200 on and 200 off where the “on” portion is about your current 5k pace, the “off” portion is about 15-20 seconds slower.

    5 minutes rest

    20 minutes (at least) cool down.

    THis workout can be done about once every other week during Phase I and as you move on to the next phase

  • #13770

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    http://www.lactate.com/pitesbas.html

    We like the term Lactate Threshold or LT because it is easy to remember and the point is primarily about lactate production and clearance.

    According to this, as well as any other definition I have seen, LT is about production and clearance. Your lactate levels don’t rise, hence you don’t hit your lactate threshold, until clearance can’t keep up with production. This means LT depends on both variables.

  • #13771

    randys
    Member

    This week I gave myself a break! Its been almost 6 months since I last did speed work. To ease into it mentally I decided to up the number of repeats but make the recover really long.

    Starting next week I will do these workouts as either 3 or 4 repeats with an 800m recovery.

    I didn’t know what to expect after 6 months and I didn’t want to go out there and find myself struggling the very first week. I traded extra repeats for longer recoveries so I could adjust to running the right pace.

    Randy

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