Introduction

Welcome! Forums Running Forum Introduction

This topic contains 47 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  Scattershot 14 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #1505

    Scattershot
    Member

    Greetings, all. Just thought I’d toss out a quick intro before getting knee deep in reading/replying. 🙂

    I’m 24 years old, 6’6″, currently 347 pounds and I’m addicted to long distance running. I can’t really explain it. Someone of my size/stature is generally better suited to powerlifting or olympic lifting, but the weight room never really held my interest. I feel like a completely different person when I’m out on the road/track. I love it!

    As for experience, I’ve done four half-marathons in Wilmington, DE over the past five years. My best time was 2:26:44 in 2001, but I had the luxury of weighing about 300 pounds at the time. I decided to do the race this past March literally 10 days before it happened; I hadn’t been able to run more than three miles for the previous 18 months or so, but somehow I pulled it out. My time was atrocious at 3:17:48, but I stipped the scales at 370 at that point so I was happy to just finish. I jokingly refer to it as “losing” the race, since I came in dead-last by about five minutes.

    Currently, I’m doing maintenance training (about 20 miles/week) until June 7th, where I’ll be starting training to go long at the Marine Corps Marathon in Washington, DC on October 31st (yay, Halloween!). The whole point to this, aside from the irrational love for the sport, is to drop lots of weight, hopefuly down to 250. 🙂 I started this little quest on March 2nd at 380 and have dropped 33 pounds over the last 10 weeks or so.

    Anywho, that’s my little short story. Hope to see/talk to y’all soon!

  • #14524

    Zeke
    Member

    Scattershot,

    Welcome to the forum. I hope you stick around so we can watch your progression towards MCM.

    You don’t hear things like this too often on the running forums…

    I had the luxury of weighing about 300 pounds at the time.

    That’s more than double me.

  • #14525

    Scattershot
    Member

    Thanks Zeke! I’ll be around from now on, worry not. I used to hang out at some lifting forums but since I wasn’t doing that anymore it didn’t make much sense to lurk. It just occurred to me earlier that I could probably find like-minded forums out there for running, which I’m much more comfortable with.

    As for the luxury deal, I’ve always been a big guy. I entered high school at 300 pounds and hated running like every fat man should. It wasn’t until I got to college that I learned running wasn’t so bad. My Philosophy professor was of the badass variety and inspired me to see how far I could push myself. He remains a true friend and mentor today. We discussed my doing the MCM a few years ago but I wasn’t ready for it yet. Oddly, that was about 60 pounds ago. Funny how that works, but I expect to be sub-300 by the time the MCM rolls around, hopefully closer to 275. I think that’s the only way I’m going to get through it.

    I did some reading through the more recent posts earlier and just boggled. 50 miles a week? 100? Not mention races of the same distance? Good lord! The furthest I ever ran at one time was 14 miles and the best I ever did in a week was 35. I almost can’t fathom doing those higher numbers. Part of it is that I can’t string more than three or four days together without taking one off to keep my joints going. I’ve got a bum right knee that needs constant attention and I don’t think my shins ever stopped splinting from the first day I got back on the road. If I can get through the first half mile or so I can usually run through them but there are days that I wake up and go, “Mmmmmmno, I don’t think so.”

  • #14526

    Ed 1
    Member

    Keep it up! Lose the weight – not only do the running but change your dietary habits as well. Less of everything – except the miles. Slowly add miles only about 10% a week and you will see the weekly mileage climb. I started at about two miles four times a week and now do about 60 a week in a year’s time. Although, I did not have the weight to lose like you do – so you will take more time but you CAN DO IT. You have proven that you have ability to run and even more important the desire to run. We look forward to your company and progress. Stick with us for some good motivation the people here are great.

  • #14527

    cameron
    Member
    Ed 1 wrote:
    10% a week

    go easy on him ryan… 😆

    welcome Scattershot…where’s the nickname come from?

  • #14528

    Scattershot
    Member

    Ed 1: Thanks for the encouragement. 🙂 My diet has been in order for the last 6 weeks or so. All I’m eating anymore is meat, veggies, the occassional fruit, and drinking lots of water (my poor bladder!). I do have a ketchup fetish but that’s an almost imperceptible sin. My carbs, otherwise, come strictly from the fruits/veggies and a post-workout drink. No, I’m not on Atkins or anything foolish like that. I consume enough to replenish my glycogen levels, usually about 100 grams/day. As for total kCal intake, my basal metabolic rate at 350 is around 3100/day. I routinely hit between 2200-2400 and burn the rest with running. Every once in a while I’ll overfeed for a couple days on purpose to keep the T-levels up and cortisol levels down. Chronic underfeeding is a great way to lose muscle mass, afterall, but the overfeed days are still clean. I looked at my diet in March and said, “OK, I got here on a crap diet and no self-motivation.” The solution seemed pretty clear.

    Cameron: Scattershot has many meanings for me, but chief among them is that he’s my favorite Transformer. 🙂 He’s an Autobot so he has all the “good” virtues but he tends to act like a Decepticon; “rude, gruff and direct”. He and I share very few qualities (which is probably why I like him so much), but the one we do have in common is unholy endurance; no, I haven’t run 50 miles, but I’d like to see the man who has at 350! I found it fitting in a weird/insane kind of way.

    Thanks for the warm welcome, guys!

  • #14529

    r-at-work
    Member

    welcome… I’m rather new here myself… but I’ve found everyone here friendly and helpful..

    on the days when you just can’t hit the road because your knees won’t let you, consider another cardio activty… cross-training had helped me through many a “almost injured” time span and adds variety that I need sometimes… as long as I know it’s temporary I enjoy getting on the bike, or the elliptical and even water jogging (take my kid to the pool and get two things done at once)…

    I come from a family with the genetic capabilty to be HUGE and diabetic so I’ve done a lot of careful meal planning… and I’ve also been taking Glucosomine Chondroitin (sp?) which seems to help my knees…

    if you get into the MCM you may want to check out their Clydesdale division…

  • #14530

    Scattershot
    Member

    Thanks for the welcome, R!

    My family has that same genetic disposition to hugeness and diabetes, although I am the freak among them. My dad is about 6′, 240 pounds and my brother is 6’1″, 275. Dad got diagnosed with Type II a couple years ago and I don’t think he eats especially poorly so it seems clear that it won’t take much.

    I used to use G/CH and more recently MSM for my knees. I can’t say if it really helped or not, there’s some conflicting evidence. I haven’t used anything in a couple months though and, aside from the rice-crispies snap-crackle-pop whenever I stand up my knees have been OK. I just make sure I have my brace on the right one whenever I’m running and it seems to hold up OK, along with some dynamic/ballistic stretching. My knee had been the primary reason I couldn’t do more than three miles for the longest time. The again, maybe it was all in my head. I just kinda rolled out of bed at the beginning of this past March and said, “I’m going to run the half-marathon this year and I don’t care what my time is; I need to get one under my belt again to get this ball rolling.” And so it was. I’m more or less taking the same approach to the MCM, although I’m thinking I should be able to run it in less than 6 hours, but I’ll have a better idea for goal times towards August or so.

    As for getting into the MCM, I had a hard time coming up with the entrance fee so I’m going to try ghost-running. I’d finish in the back of the field anyway so it shouldn’t be a problem. I’ve got a couple friends who have agreed to come down and crew for me. So, no “official finish” but a watch does the same thing as their clock. 🙂

  • #14531

    r-at-work
    Member

    not that I am usually self-richteous.. though if you asked my family & friend they would “yes she is”… but if the MCM is too much money consider another race… in fact some smaller races will give you an entry if you do some volunteer ‘work’ for them… like help stuff envelopes or pass out t-shirts at their expo(make sure it involves sitting down)…

    most important don’t bandit the MCM even in the 6 hour group there are too many people already… and you’ll miss the best part, getting the medal from a Marine (it’s cool)

    consider Richmond, VA (11-13 this year)… I think it’s cheaper…

    my biggest concern with bandits, even if they don’t use any of the resources (water/food) is that if they were to pass out (I’ve seen it) they might not be carrying ID and the EMTs would have less info to work with…

    -R

  • #14532

    Scattershot
    Member

    I understand how bandits are frowned upon and you raised legitmate points. I see they’re still accepting registration forms until June 1st for the lottery, maybe I can still pull something off. However…

    r-at-work wrote:
    and you’ll miss the best part, getting the medal from a Marine (it’s cool)

    This would be the wrong reason to run it, in my opinion. Medals, t-shirts, awards… they’re cool sovenirs but my ego will survive without them if I can’t make the registration or don’t get in via the lottery.

  • #14533

    pski
    Member

    Scattershot,

    Welcome first of all and good luck with the goals. I have an Uncle your size. I have to extend some caution to you if you plan to run for any length of time.

    A man your size will either break down at the knees, ankles and hips before too long or your built of steel.

    Just a suggestion, you may have to walk before you run, meaning you would be better served losing weight first and then slowly build up some runs, sstarting very short.

    Ideally I’d like to see you exercise in a non-impact capacity while losing the weight, i.e. swimming, biking, eliptical training, stepper machines, anything at first but pounding.

    I did a lot of these very things at first when I started out just over 200 lbs and I’m 5’10”. Once in the 170’s I began to run and I only ended up with one bout of IT Band syndrome since I began in the fall of 97 and that occurred in 99.

    This is by no means sent to discourage the couragous, but remember, we would all like to be in it for the long haul. Be smart, be patient, take a step at a time. Kudos to you for finishing any race, let alone a half-marathon!

    Best of Luck, PSKI

  • #14534

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Scattershot, first off, welcome to the forums. I hope you find this to be a good place to share your interest in running and to find guidance when you are looking for some.

    I would actually second Pski’s point. I would advise against a marathon at least until you dropped to a more running friendly weight. The marathon in itself is a very demanding event even for lightweights. At your weight, it would be extremely demanding on your bones and joints to not just carry your weight around on marathon day but also to do so through all of the training needed to prepare for a marathon. There are many great things about shorter events, why not enjoy those things until you are at a weight that would be more marathon friendly?

    While I’m at it, I would also second R’s point. No matter where you are running in the pack, there are a lot of resources that you are using, especially in a marathon. Add in the fact that MCM has a cap on entrants, which should tell you space and resources are limited, and the already questionable at best idea of banditing seems even worse.

    None of this is meant to discourage you. I love the enthusiasm you are bringing to your running and I think it should be encouraged. I hope you accomplish all of your goals and more as they relate to running. However, sometimes we have to temper our enthusiasm for our own good.

  • #14535

    hollowd
    Member

    Scattershot,

    I’ve read your introduction and I must say I’m quite impressed and inspired by your tenacity! I’m a fellow heavyweight (not a contender) but am 205lbs with some “extra” around the middle. I’ve completed eleven marathons with a PR of 4:25:00 but most of them in the 4:35:00 zone. I, like you have come to the stanch reality that I’m a heavy guy! Yes, I could eat better, yes I could eat smarter, yes, I could train much harder, (I’m a 25 to 40 mile per week guy) and yes, I ain’t very fast. I know I could be much, much, faster and ftter if I’d just lose the extra 15 to 20lb., but it just isn’t happening given what I’ve already stated. With that said, my advice to you would be to investigate the run/walk method of marathon completion. I’ve done it in most of my outings and won’t do it any other way. I feel much better, physically and mostly mentally when I run 6 to 8 minutes and walk one minute. Given my level of training and truly knowing that I’m never going to be a “real runner” like 99% of the people on Hillrunners site, it’s the only way for me to do it without killing myself. I will also tell you that the “real runners” on this site are on another planet with their training and with their expertise! I can’t imagine the milege and the mental dedication that these guys/gals log in a week and knowing that I personally will never be or want to be in their league, they are still very encouraging and helpful to “chops” like me!

    Best of luck with your quest on MCM and all I can say that once you cross that finish line, just once! – running or crawling, you will find out that it will change your life forever and their won’t be a day that goes by that you don’t treasure it!

  • #14536

    Scattershot
    Member

    Thanks for the welcome, PSKI! Hilarious name, by the way. I saw you made a remark about it in another thread and had to chuckle. 🙂

    Maybe this is my lifting mentality shining through, but some people have cautioned me in much the same way you did about the pounding my joints are taking. I’ve become very adept at listening to my body since I started LD running in 99 and have a good idea of when I’m pushing too hard. Now, that doesn’t mean an injury can’t occur. I tore the cartilage in my right knee at the end of 2002 playing a little backyard football, so clearly I’m not made of steel. However, there’s something to be said for throwing a little caution to the wind. It seems to me that we’re bombarded in our society by precaution, prevention, playing it safe and minimizing our risks. To me, life itself is a risk. There’s certainly a time and place for those things and I do my best to prevent any injuries. However, to be reduced to elliptical training when I’m fully capable of banging out six or eight on the road seems a bit much.

    If nothing else, the cartilage tear taught me to enjoy what I’m capable of doing now, because who knows how long it will last. I push myself when I feel up to it and take off when I need to. There’s no guarantee for any of us that we’ll remain injury free forever. But the god’s honest truth is, I would rather take that risk and do what I love doing than play it safe and wonder what might have been if I had just pushed a little bit.

    Nevertheless, I appreciate and understand your concern, PSKI. I’m just stubborn enough to believe that I can drop the weight and run at the same time.

  • #14537

    Scattershot
    Member
    Ryan wrote:
    I would actually second Pski’s point. I would advise against a marathon at least until you dropped to a more running friendly weight. The marathon in itself is a very demanding event even for lightweights. At your weight, it would be extremely demanding on your bones and joints to not just carry your weight around on marathon day but also to do so through all of the training needed to prepare for a marathon. There are many great things about shorter events, why not enjoy those things until you are at a weight that would be more marathon friendly?

    Because I’ve done the shorter events. I’ve done the 5ks, the 10ks and the half-marathons. The whole point here is to drop the excess weight in time for the MCM and the way I want to do that is by running. I should be under 335 by the end of this month, 320 for June, 305 for July, 295 for August and 285 in September. I have a gradual training schedule laid out that has me running 22 miles on my long day two weeks before the event and I’m determined to see it through.

    Really guys, I appreciate the recommendations, but I’ve been looking forward to doing this for five years. I have the motivation and the desire, all I need is for my body to catch up and, so far, it’s been responding very well.

  • #14538

    Scattershot
    Member

    Hollowd,

    I’m humbled by your kind words. The fat guy never set out to impress or inspire anyone, just to demonstrate the mind-over-matter theory. 🙂 But yeah, the posts I read about going for triple-digit mileage are insane! I don’t know if I’ll ever get there but I haven’t ruled it out, just yet. See, what keeps occurring to me is that there was a time where I thought I couldn’t run more than two miles at a time. Someone cared enough to show me how wrong that was. I remember how the conversation went like it was yesterday. “I just ran two miles, woo!” “That’s great! I’ll have you running eight in a couple months.” “I don’t see how that could happen, but hey…” A ‘couple months’ later I finished my first half-marathon. As much as I’m running for myself, I feel I owe it to him to show that his belief in me and his encouragement was not in vain.

    By the way, those are pretty good times for going long, nice work!

  • #14539

    runnerdude
    Member

    Because I’ve done the shorter events. I’ve done the 5ks, the 10ks and the half-marathons. The whole point here is to drop the excess weight in time for the MCM and the way I want to do that is by running. I should be under 335 by the end of this month, 320 for June, 305 for July, 295 for August and 285 in September. I have a gradual training schedule laid out that has me running 22 miles on my long day two weeks before the event and I’m determined to see it through.

    hey, I just want to say that your determination is quite impressive. I used to lift religiously when I did track as a shot & discus thrower. Like Ryan, I would advise getting safely down to a lower weight (maybe 230) before entering a marathon. Unlike the shorter races, you really don’t know what’s going to happen and 285 is a lot to carry for that distance. I was a comparatively small shotputter at 195lbs and now I weigh 170. I wouldn’t consider running a marathon at the weight I was back then. Also, what marathon program are you using? A 22-mile long run just 2 weeks before the race seems too close. I would do such a run 1 month or 3 weeks before the racedate and (if you do it 3 weeks out) begin tapering immediately thereafter.

  • #14540

    Scattershot
    Member

    Runnerdude,

    I was looking through some logs of past MCM performances. The site I found had weights listed. I was scrolling through to see if anyone was over 200 pounds when my jaw hit the floor. A 49 year old man listed at 360 pounds finished the MCM in 2000, I believe it was. If he can do it at 360, I can do it at 285 (or less, hopefully… my ideal weight in time for the MCM is 275, which will be almost 15 pounds lighter than I’ve ever weighed in my adult life). Everyone has to work with what cards they were dealt. These are mine and I’m playing them as best I can.

    As for my training schedule, I’m sure there’s a name for this but if so I have no clue what it is. The concept is to alternate distances on long days every other week. For example, I’ll start on June 6th with a 2 mile run for the “long day”. The next week, I’ll run four miles for the long day. The third week, I add 1 mile to the shorter long day, for 3. The fourth week, I add 2 miles to the longer long day, for 6. So it’s +1 on the shorter weeks and +2 on the longer ones. On and on I go until I hit 22 for my final week on October 17th. In essence, the first 8 weeks aren’t really “training”, per se, as I can run 10 miles right now, but the structure will get me tuned in for when I start hitting longer distances that I haven’t covered before.

  • #14541

    r-at-work
    Member

    1. as hollowd said… the run/walk thing works… I was coming off an injury in 2002 and did the first (and only as it turned out) DC marathon on lots less than optimal training… my original thought was that since I had registered I would go out and run the first ten miles and then jump on the Metro and go home… my husband said “I’ll see you at 2:30″…

    I did run the first 10 miles but my husband was right, I couldn’t stop… so I jogged & walked the last 16 and ended up with a PW but I was not even tired or sore… my husband said it proved I was more tenatious than intelligent…

    it wasn’t “running” a marathon… but I did finish… and I guess that’s what you need to decide… what is you REAL goal… if it’s to lose weight and be healthier, maybe a marathon isn’t the healthiest option… but if all you want to do is say you ran on the course without paying and didn’t start or finish the race with the others than that’s your choice…

    have you ever seen the zoo that the MCM is at the start?… it is not a pretty site, last year was the worst… I spent the first two miles passing people who were walking, some four abreast… and they weren’t even Galloway people… they were WALKERS who had planned to walk the whole way…

    2. but if you’re banditing… when are you going to “jump in”… there really isn’t any clear area till about mile 1 and you also have to peel off before the last 0.2 so you won’t even be running the full race… so you won’t be able to say you DID it…just that you did part of it

    so that’s two thoughts… I understand the motivation behind deciding to DO a marathon before you are really ready… I had run off and on for almost 8 years and REGISTERED in January for a 10K(Feb-00), ten miler(Apr-00) and a marathon(Oct-00)… knowing that I had put out the money helped to keep me training…

    then I got hooked…

    -R

  • #14542

    Scattershot
    Member
    r-at-work wrote:
    I understand the motivation behind deciding to DO a marathon before you are really ready…

    I’m as ready for it as I’ll ever be, mentally. Physically, it’s a matter of a little luck and a lot of execution. I know it’s not going to be anything in the realm of easy. Runnerdude suggested I get down to 230 before trying it, but that’s not really possible. I’m currently at 35% body fat, which means 121 of my 347 pounds is fat. The rest is lean body mass (bones, organs, muscle, etc.). 347 – 121 = 226, and I’m packing on muscle mass every week just from running (my quads and hamstrings are, in a word, enormous in a not-terribly-fat kind of way). That’s why 250 is an ideal weight for me at around 10% BF.

    As far as jumping in, I’m operating in the dark, currently. However, my philosophy professor I mentioned before has run it several times. We’re getting together next month so we can go over strategy, layout and things of that nature. I’ll know for sure where I stand as far as the lottery goes at that point.

  • #14543

    hollowd
    Member

    r-at-work,

    I was reading your advice to Scattershot, the 300 lb. + runner trying to run or finish the marathon and you make some good points. I was interested in your phrasing between “running” the marathon and just “finishing” a marathon with the implication that finishing one is not the same as “running” one. I know the Galloway theory has been discussed ad- nausem on the RW forums and I’m not wanting to get into that, but it does work for me and by your post it DID work for you albeit you jogged (whatever that means) and slowed down at first due to the reasons of lack of conditioning or Illness or whatever it was and finished the race with a PR. Maybe I’m just not getting this and I’m not directing this at you personally, you’re probably much faster than me but for arguments sake lets take the finish time of 4:00 hr (that’s my benchmark for ‘real runner’ status – your’s may be much lower) now, If the same peron runs a 4 hr. race and uses the conventional way, meaning no walking ever, and the same person utilizes the Galloway run/walk method and finishs in 3:59, which person is more successful? Which is the better method? Can the 3:59 claim that he/she “ran” the marthon or just “completed” it! You obviously know where I’m going with this? I guess maybe I’m thin-skinned about it when someone (not you) discounts the value of finishing the race by asking if you had to walk, wanted to walk but didn’t or skipped the entire way not realizing that in my opinion, it really doesn’t matter just as long as you finished! Where is that magical time line that determines what “running” the whole way as opposed to just “finishing” in a faster time utilizing the Galloway method? “Real-runners” I’m truly not trying to inflame anyone here, I know how most of you stand on the situation.

    Hillrunner, please splain it to me!

  • #14544

    Ryan
    Keymaster
    hollowd wrote:
    Hillrunner, please splain it to me!

    Huh? I’m supposed to explain someone else’s opinion when I have no idea how that opinion has been formed? FWIW, there’s a good reason I always avoid the “real runner” (note that you’re the first on this thread to even mention that debate) and “running vs. ‘just’ finishing” debates. That’s because I think those seem like silly debates to me. You are a real runner if you really run, I guess meaning you’re not a real runner if you only run in your imagination or something like that. As for the other one, define it however you feel. If I decide I don’t want to say I ran a marathon when I walked part of it, that’s what I’ll say. However, I’m not going to tell you or r-at-work or anyone else what to say if/when they don’t run the whole way. What effect does it have on me if they say they ran it, ran/walked it, walked it, crawled it, covered the distance, finished it, or whatever other term they would want to use?

  • #14545

    Scattershot
    Member

    This brings up a point, actually. I don’t expect to be able to “run” the whole way. Of the four half-marathons I’ve done, I only was able to run through the entirety of one of them. I’d call it a success if I were able to run 75% of the miles or more and keep that time under 6 hours, but those are pretty sketchy goals to be setting right now.

    But yes, I would say to anyone that I “ran” the MCM, when I complete it.

  • #14546

    pski
    Member

    SCATTERSHOT, I will agree with you about the caution thing. It does keep alot of people form finding out what breaks them and where they can go. So with that, DRIVE ON!!! We’ll help here I’m sure where we can. It is a great site overall. PSKI

  • #14547

    r-at-work
    Member

    guys… no flames intended… I really se the Galloway meathod as a HUGE help for lots of people… as I said… I used it when I should have just gotten off the course, but was too hard headed to quit… and it was a PW “Personal Worst” (5:59) but I finished…in fact about mile 20 I was really doing it as an experiment of sorts… to see if it really worked…

    and it does… if what you want to do is finish…

    and I feel like I need to tell all of you I am REALLY slow and a 50 y.o. woman… but I’m working with a coaching group and running faster than I did (first 10K 1991 = 58:30, last Sunday 54:12) so I guess I have to be happy with being way past my prime, lacking in talent but still improving…

    I also have used the walk/run technique as a way of avoiding injury on some of my long runs & as a recovery tool when I knew I should be taking it easy but decided to go out and run anyway…

    as for people “completing” or “running” or “racing” a marathon… I will never throw stones… but knowing what a zoo MCM is I think it is important to point out it’s not a good race to bandit because you’d have to cut a couple miles off because of the staging at the beginning and the end…

    I understand that Scattershot’s mentor has done it and that may be the whole impetus behind the choice… but I still would vote for Richmond, VA as a better choice, a couple weeks later, flatter course, down hill at the end as opposed to the MCM (but that would be skipped by a bandit)… and I ran my PR (4:44) there…see, I’m slow…but improving

    -R

  • #14548

    runnerdude
    Member

    As for my training schedule, I’m sure there’s a name for this but if so I have no clue what it is. The concept is to alternate distances on long days every other week. For example, I’ll start on June 6th with a 2 mile run for the “long day”. The next week, I’ll run four miles for the long day. The third week, I add 1 mile to the shorter long day, for 3. The fourth week, I add 2 miles to the longer long day, for 6. So it’s +1 on the shorter weeks and +2 on the longer ones. On and on I go until I hit 22 for my final week on October 17th. In essence, the first 8 weeks aren’t really “training”, per se, as I can run 10 miles right now, but the structure will get me tuned in for when I start hitting longer distances that I haven’t covered before.

    not to be condescending or anyting, but I don’t think this “training” schedule is going to be very helpful. If you can run 10 miles continuously right now, that is where I would advise beginning the long run distance in the training. Also, a 22 mile long run exactly 2 weeks before the MCM may not allow you to recover sufficiently in time for the marathon.

  • #14549

    Ryan
    Keymaster
    runnerdude wrote:
    If you can run 10 miles continuously right now, that is where I would advise beginning the long run distance in the training.

    I was thinking the same thing. Maybe going 10, 8, 12, 9, etc. or something along that line. At the most, I’d cut back less and maybe start at around 7-8 miles. If you’re already doing 10 milers, why on earth cut all the way back to 2 miles? You’re wasting the base you’ve already worked to build up.

    Also, if you are planning on using walk breaks in the marathon, start using them right away in your long runs. Train the way you intend to race and race the way you trained.

  • #14550

    runnerdude
    Member

    If the same peron runs a 4 hr. race and uses the conventional way, meaning no walking ever, and the same person utilizes the Galloway run/walk method and finishs in 3:59, which person is more successful? Which is the better method? Can the 3:59 claim that he/she “ran” the marthon or just “completed” it! You obviously know where I’m going with this? I guess maybe I’m thin-skinned about it when someone (not you) discounts the value of finishing the race by asking if you had to walk, wanted to walk but didn’t or skipped the entire way not realizing that in my opinion, it really doesn’t matter just as long as you finished! Where is that magical time line that determines what “running” the whole way as opposed to just “finishing” in a faster time utilizing the Galloway method?

    you’ve got a lot of different things going on in this example, but if you’re comparing two people of similar ability and fitness level and one finishes the same marathon without taking walk breaks one minute later than the other person who did use walk breaks, then the inescapable conclusion is that the “continuous runner” either didn’t run to his/her potential or he/she was sick or injured on race day. This is because it’s a known fact in the running world that running continuously at a constant pace uses less energy than running and stopping/walk breaking. The caveat is that if a runner is not in shape to run a marathon continuously, then using walk breaks can allow such a runner to finish faster than if they tried to run continuously. Now, this doesn’t mean that those who use the galloway method are not “real runners,” simply that they are using a less efficient method to compensate for incomplete training. The controversy has come from statements that Galloway has made in various attempts to promote his method.

    As for those who discount the finish by asking if one had to walk, there is a subset of runners who view taking walk breaks as cheating. I’m not one of them, but you should realize that they are part of the running community.

  • #14551

    Zeke
    Member
    r-at-work wrote:
    …in fact about mile 20 I was really doing it as an experiment of sorts… to see if it really worked…

    I haven’t been following this whole thread that closely, but I just wanted to say I think you need to Gallowalk from the beginning if you want to reap the benefits. The idea is to walk early on, so you save your legs. If you wait till you’re too tired before you start to walk, it defeats the purpose.

    I am REALLY slow and a 50 y.o. woman… but I’m working with a coaching group and running faster than I did (first 10K 1991 = 58:30, last Sunday 54:12) so I guess I have to be happy with being way past my prime, lacking in talent but still improving…

    Great job on the 54:12 10k, that’s sub-8:45 pace. I think you can stop referring to yourself as slow. I consider the Twin Cities to have an above average running community. Your times would fall in the 40-50% range here. I think that’s solid. Plus, I hate to see you keep coming on here telling everyone you’re slow. If you think that, it can only carry over to your racing. Putting it in writing is even worse. You gotta create that positive self-image, even if it’s on a running forum with people you may never meet.

  • #14552

    Anonymous

    I ran my first marathon while weighing in the 260s. I just finished my second while weighing in the 240s, finishing in 4:30. There were several others my size, several finishing ahead of me and a few under 4 hours. So, it can be done. I do all my long runs on grass and have never had any injuries.

    I was 17% bodyfat at 256 lbs, which would mean I’d be really lean if I got down to 230. But I got close to 230 and wasn’t near as lean as I would have thought. The point is, it’s nearly impossible to lose fat without losing muscle. I bet if you get down to 250, you’ll find that you could still go lower.

    But that’s in the future. Just keep the weight going in the right direction and worry about the ending point later.

  • #14553

    Scattershot
    Member
    GravitationallyChallenged wrote:
    The point is, it’s nearly impossible to lose fat without losing muscle. I bet if you get down to 250, you’ll find that you could still go lower.

    This is a common misconception. It is not, and I can’t emphasize this enough, nearly impossible to lose fat without losing muscle. There are ways to gain muscle on a hypocaloric diet just as there are ways to burn fat on a hypercaloric one, and they can be meshed effectively to produce a body that is both burning the fat and building the muscle at the same time. The Russians designed the first of such a program in the 1950s for their Olympic lifters which was called the Zig-Zag. They would underfeed their athletes on cardio days and overfeed them on lifting days to make sure they were as primed as possible. Of course, gearing up doesn’t hurt, in that respect.

    I’ve lost a lot of fat in the last two months, but I know it’s going to plateau for me at some point as my body starts to adapt. When that happens, I will be adding lifting to my regimen for the specific purpose of burning more calories per day, both in the lifting and at rest (more muscle = more calories burned per day). Nutrient timing becomes crucial at this stage to keep the balance in check. Even 250 may not be feasible for me as I may have another five to ten pounds of muscle mass by the time I get close to it and I wouldn’t want to sacrifice those gains for anything. Intentionally cutting muscle is almost never a good idea. If you have your body in an anabolic state, why on earth would you want to catabolize it?

    Understand that I will not be “big” or “ripped” (in the muscular sense) or anything like that once in the neighborhood of 250. I’ll be strong, yes, but not inhibitively so.

  • #14554

    Scattershot
    Member
    Ryan wrote:
    I was thinking the same thing. Maybe going 10, 8, 12, 9, etc. or something along that line. At the most, I’d cut back less and maybe start at around 7-8 miles. If you’re already doing 10 milers, why on earth cut all the way back to 2 miles? You’re wasting the base you’ve already worked to build up.

    Also, if you are planning on using walk breaks in the marathon, start using them right away in your long runs. Train the way you intend to race and race the way you trained.

    First, the two mile “long day” would not be my actual long day during the week. I have absolutely no idea how I’m going to run the race right now. Ideally, and perhaps unrealistically, perhaps I will be in good enough condition to run the whole way by the time it comes around. Dropping almost 75 more pounds may have that drastic of an effect, but I won’t have an idea until July or August. In keeping with your second point, I hope I’m able to run the whole way and to that end, the smaller runs in the first 8 weeks or so are designed to test that theory (moreso towards the end, of course). The gradual build-up assures that I’m not jumping around insanely from one week to the next and that I have a chance to set a pace for further down the line. It is also the only structured run of the week for me. The other four days I will be running however long I feel like going on that particular day, within reason. I’m not using the 10% rule, so to speak, but I think you’d agree that going from 20 to 35 to 50 and back down to 20 over four weeks isn’t doing me much good.

    I guess the shorter version of this is, yes, I can fully run ten miles right now, but that is by no means an easy effort and guarantees my running for the next week or so will suffer for it.

    Now, some people have mentioned that 22 miles two weeks before the race will be perilous in terms of timing. Honestly, I thought the same thing when we were designing this program so I’m not opposed to starting a week earlier so that run occurs on October 10th. Given that I can’t run more than five times a week as it is, that’s probably a much smarter approach.

  • #14555

    Anonymous

    “It is not, and I can’t emphasize this enough, nearly impossible to lose fat without losing muscle. There are ways to gain muscle on a hypocaloric diet just as there are ways to burn fat on a hypercaloric one, and they can be meshed effectively to produce a body that is both burning the fat and building the muscle at the same time. The Russians designed the first of such a program in the 1950s for their Olympic lifters which was called the Zig-Zag. “

    The reason they came up with a Zig-zag, or anabolic burst, or whatever is that it’s real hard to lose significant amounts of fat without losing muscle, especially if you’re marathon training. You have to fool your body. One of the first pieces of advice to avoid catabolism is to avoid really long cardio sessions.

    If you optimize your cardio, are absolutely perfect with your diet, take the right supplements (preferably steroids), and continue to lift with high intensity (however you define intensity), you can cut fat while maintaining or building muscle. But if you’re out doing 4-5 hour long runs, you’re eating for recovery and survival and you’re not going to have energy to lift big with your legs.

    Look at a top marathoner’s legs – scrawny. When you’re running longer and longer, you’re telling your body to aim for that. Maybe if you do things absolutely perfectly, you can fool your body into maintaining muscle, but geez, you gotta make a choice. Marathoning or muscle – it’s real real hard to have both.

    If I could post a photo here, I’d post one of me at >260 lbs at a marathon finish and you’ll see that I’m neither scrawny nor fat, nor do I look like a bodybuilder. I actually gained weight during my first marathon training, but I was just trying to make it through. For the second marathon, I purposely lost 25 lbs. It was hard and I lost strength, but it paid off for running.

    Hey, if you can lose fat and maintain muscle through marathon training, go for it. You’re a better man than I.

  • #14556

    puffintoad
    Member

    The topic of muscle mass came up and I had a question about this. I know that more muscle burns more calories, and that muscles are good because they provide strength. However, I don’t see any muscle-bound people winning long-distance races. They usually look incredibly lean. How does one know if they are carrying too much muscle to reach their best racing form? Do the elite runners try to keep their weight down at the loss of muscle mass, not just body fat?

  • #14557

    Anonymous

    If I could post a photo here…

    Try this:

    http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/rwexiles/lst?.dir=/TRM+-+Thin+Running+Man

    You probably have to log in. The fourth photo is from recently after losing 25 lbs.

  • #14558

    Anonymous
    puffintoad wrote:
    Do the elite runners try to keep their weight down at the loss of muscle mass, not just body fat?

    I was on a track team in college with several all-american distance runners. They really did watch their weight even though they were real skinny already. Others claim they eat whatever they want and brag about eating a lot.

    Back to the guy who started this topic. I just noticed that you’re 24 years old. A child! You have more time and energy than I can even recall having. Maybe you do have time and energy to do your training and diet absolutely perfect.

  • #14559

    Scattershot
    Member

    Grav and Puffin both raised points about “top marathoners”. I am not going to be a top marathoner, nor come anywhere close to it, even at my best. The thing to keep in mind is that most of the people here are runners. I am an athlete who happens to run; there is a major, major difference. I am a big fan of The Rock from the WWE; one of his early catch-phrases was, “Know your role.” I know mine, and winning marathons, or being competitive in them, ain’t it. 🙂

    Catabolism does not have to occur in any one for any sport (the possible exceptions being those who do the 50 and 100 mile races, I can’t speak to that kind of event). There are non-steroid supplements out there (I mentioned one in another thread, Surge) which are specifically designed to keep a body from dipping into a catabolic state. The diet has to be immaculate and sleep plentiful, but it can be done without becoming an overwhelming obsession.

  • #14560

    Scattershot
    Member

    I was reading over the development of the thread and I think I owe everyone an apology. I don’t mean to come off as if I think I know everything and I apologize if that’s the impression I’ve left. Obviously, I haven’t gone long before and as Grav so graciously pointed out, I’m barely 24. I just have some big ideas on how I want this to work out because yes, this will be the greatest athletic achievement of my life to date and with it comes a host of changes that hopefully will affect the rest of my life. When I crossed the finish line in my first half-marathon, fighting for every last step before sweet, sweet unconsciousness set in, I thought that would be the pinnacle for me, but I’ve been recently inspired to take it to the next level… no matter the cost.

    Anyway, I just wanted to clear the record.

  • #14561

    puffintoad
    Member

    I tried to respond earlier and my computer wouldn’t let me. I’ll try to remember what I was going to say. Something about the fact that I had taken the topic on a slight tangent because I wasn’t referring to your case in particular about muscle mass and performance. I was just doing some experimenting of my own on what body weight/fat/muscle mass at I would race best. I tend to bulk up as I increase mileage, and I didn’t know if I would do better to try and keep my weight down. You will probably know what works best for you as you get closer to your goals. Good luck with your training!

  • #14562

    MothAudio
    Member

    SS-

    Everything begins with a vision or dream, which is transformed into reality. You have a strong desire to accomplish your goal, “no matter the cost”. I think that statement puts everything into perspective. This is a very friendly and informative forum, and many of the people are trying to offer good advice without slighting your excitement.

    People seem to think that you’re not a real runner unless you run, walk or crawl a marathon. I’ve run 13 and hope to run another but every distance is worthy. Some people are better suited to different events. I prefer the 15k-15m distance, but I want to run Boston again, so that’s the reason for my “marathon calling”.

    Rather than stiffle your dream I would suggest you continue to improve your fitness and point toward a marathon next Fall. After coming back from an injury I ran two marathons that were two hours slower than what I ran before the injury. Rather than accept that I haven’t run one in four years and instead have dropped weight while slowly working on getting back to my previous level of fitness.

    My next marathon will be in 2006, where I’ll try for my Boston Qualifier. I’m working on my base and improving my speed in shorter races that point toward a “BQ effort”. I dropped my half time by 6 minutes last year and need to drop another six the next two years. Because of my precondition I can’t hammer away like I did, so my progress has to be measured over time. But I know that if I really want this it is possible… as long as I train smart, and stay motivated.

    MikE

    p.s. Bandits suck. I’m sure if you contacted the race commitee about your situation they may comp you the entry fee for some volunteer work.

  • #14563

    Scattershot
    Member

    #@%$&!

    I went on a camping trip last night with some friends. These friends lack basic intelligence and got their car stuck… IN SAND. In my herculean attempt to get their car out of the trap, I pulled my right quad. At least the attempt was successful.

    I don’t know if this means I’m on the DL for a bit or not, but I am far from pleased right now. I’ll know more tonight after an attempted run.

  • #14564

    Scattershot
    Member

    I went for five miles so the quad probably won’t be an issue, yay! I did start to feel something in my left knee (the non-damaged one… or at least, less-damaged) but it went away by the time I finished. I’ll be curious to see if it returns tonight, I think I’m going for six. The problem is that I have to wait for the sun to almost set since I’m so horribly sunburned. I don’t particularly mind running on the track when it’s dark (there’s enough light around to have reasonable vision) but I’d obviously rather have some daylight to work with. Now, if it would just get a little cloudly around 6:30, that would be lovely.

  • #14565

    puffintoad
    Member

    The knee possibly could be overcompensating if your quad was sore when you ran. Do you think they are related or not?

  • #14566

    Scattershot
    Member

    Ah, sorry, somehow this skipped off my radar.

    I don’t think they’re related, no. My sore quad was in my right leg (and seems to have healed). Whatever the weirdness was that night was in my left knee, which also seems to have healed. Alas, I have a new problem.

    I feel exhausted after a mile or so, all of the sudden. I don’t think it’s the heat, I’ve been running in this for about 10 days now. I’m not running much faster than I have been over the past month so I don’t think it’s a pacing problem. A little after a mile I just feel spent, all of the sudden. Couldn’t be burnout after the pathetic mileage I put up last week (12). The only thing I can come up with is that the last two or three runs have been preceded by fairly heavy meals, but that’s never been an issue before. I’m taking today off and will try running on an empty stomach tomorrow morning, I think. If I get more of the same, I’m wondering whether I should run through it or take more time off. Thoughts?

    The good news is, I’m down to 344 from 347 last week. That’s just a pinch below my average weightloss so I can’t complain, I guess.

  • #14567

    puffintoad
    Member

    If you’re losing weight, you would experience fatigue, simply due to lessened energy intake (calories).

  • #14568

    Scattershot
    Member

    All of the sudden, after almost three months? That’s a little odd, but it’s a possible explanation as well. I still feel like crap tonight after taking the day off but maybe a good night’s sleep will cure that.

  • #14569

    puffintoad
    Member

    This does seem a bit odd. I only suggested dieting fatigue becuase that’s how I was feeling myself yesterday, after twelve days of under-eating. I don’t see how anyone can be on a diet and still give their best training effort. The only other things that I could think of that would cause fatigue would be added stress from other areas of your life, a change in sleeping habits, or a missing vitamin or mineral, like iron.

  • #14570

    Scattershot
    Member

    It just occurred to me what it probably was last night and I can’t believe I didn’t see it before. I was on an odd schedule for a couple months and just returned to a more normal one. I’m pretty sure that has to be it, they coincided at about the same time.

    I still feel like crap but I’m going to try running through it for a couple days. If I have to crawl, I’ll get some double-digit mileage this week!

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