Is it really a bad thing…

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This topic contains 21 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  Peter 14 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #1291

    Peter
    Member

    To slowly build up your mileage and run somewhat aimlessly? Lemme esplain…

    My goals (short, intermediate and long) are to

    A) Run Sytennde Mai 9 weeks from now

    B) Run some races of varying distances (5k – 1/2 marathon) over the rest of summer into fall as I continue to build mileage for my next marathon

    C) Train and run Boston well next April

    I ran all of 50 miles in January. Upped it to 115 in February. As it stands, I will probably be close to 200 in March. My last 4 weeks have been 35, 41, 42 and 45-50 this week. Most of my miles are in the 7:30-8:00 range, which probably makes sense given my 38 min 10K and 3:06 marathon range. If I feel like doing a faster workout, I do it. When I need a slow recovery day or an off day, I just do it, I don’t schedule it. Right now I don’t have a plan mapped out where I run A on Mon, B on Tues etc… I’m running 5-8 miles most days, run longer on weekend day (currently up to 12), and usually take one day off a week, sometimes two. My work/life schedule allows me the opportunity to increase my mileage, and I’d like to take it to about 60 per week this summer. My goal is to run Boston in under 3:00, and not just ‘experience’ it. I want to get to 36:00 10K and 1:24 for 1/2 marathon by this fall, which should put me where I need to be for Boston build-up.

    Back to my original thought. Other than building miles steadily, is it necessary to get a set weekly program in place now, or can I loosely build miles up, run Sytennde Mai in 2 months, and go from there? I’d like to run 7 minute pace there (I feel this is very doable), and target some summer races for my time goals (10K on 7/4, half on 9/4). I don’t race very often, and I guess my focus is to just be more consistent in running more miles this year vs. last. Any and all comments/suggestions are welcomed. Thanks!

  • #13772

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    This sounds like the textbook definition of base building. I wouldn’t suggest doing this indefinitely but I think it’s a great thing to do for at least a few months, until you enter your racing season or get to the point that you’re within a few months of a goal race.

  • #13773

    Peter
    Member

    I plan on doing this up to Sytennde Mai, just b/c I know I need distance training more than speedwork, I’m lucky that I have an abundance of speed. I will probably go to somemore specific plan after that. It’s easy to base build during the winter (speaking like he knew what he was doing all along). The hard part is going to be cranking it up next December-January to get ready for Boston.

  • #13774

    danm
    Member

    I think your plan is pretty much in line with most runners. Run a bunch of races over the summer, have some fun, then start ramping up the mileage very slowly in the fall with an eye towards a spring marathon.

    From a base building perspective you should set a date to start, (say Oct 1) lay down a week by week estimate and try to follow it up until Jan 1. If you miss a workout here and there no big deal. Come Jan 1 I would have a definite plan layed out for the final 3 months up to and including your taper and try to stick to it a little closer.

    Lots of slow miles (8:30 pace) from the fall up to new years – get to where you can run 60-65 on singles with at least one mid week long run and then alternate weekends for the longer stuff. Like 14, 16, 14, 18, 14, 18, 14, 20, 14, 20, etc.

    Be sure to work for 3 weeks then cut back for a week. I think you could stand to slow the paces down to ensure that you can run farther.

    For the summer, set 1-3 races aside as one you really would like to do weel at and try to taper for them. Otherwise just have fun blasting whatever distances you come across.

    Have fun!

    Dan

  • #13775

    Double
    Member

    Dude, if I had 4:26 1600m speed, I’d run about 20 miles a week. If I had your talent, I’d burn mine.

  • #13776

    Peter
    Member

    Double, I’ll take what you said as a compliment (I think)

    Dan, I agree that I don’t have to worry too much right now about what I’m doing. Just put the miles in, perhaps at an easier pace. I do want to run some fast times this year, but more importantly, I want to be prepped and ready to run well next spring. I want to be fit and ready without burning out. It’s why I don’t stress if I miss a workout, like yesterday.

    Thanks again for the helpful advice.

  • #13777

    Zeke
    Member

    Most of my miles are in the 7:30-8:00 range, which probably makes sense given my 38 min 10K and 3:06 marathon range.

    My goal is to run Boston in under 3:00, and not just ‘experience’ it. I want to get to 36:00 10K and 1:24 for 1/2 marathon by this fall, which should put me where I need to be for Boston build-up.

    Peter,

    Just like Woody, I don’t think your goal times are aligned. Woody keeps talking about running sub-17 and sub-37. I keep telling him if he’s running sub-17 he should be thinking sub-35, 35:30 at the most. Well the same goes for you. A 38 min 10k runner should be able to run 1:24 right now and sub-3 (closer to 2:55). If you get down to 36 min, that’s sub-1:20 and sub-2:50 (closer to 2:45).

  • #13778

    Anonymous

    Pete,

    I ran sub 3 , after running 1:25 -1/2— 3 weeks out in 2001. I also that year ran 38:30 –7 weeks out for a 10 k. So in the funky calculator I was actually in better endurance shape At the time. It’s hard to match up times on the calculator. It all depends on your strentghs and weaknessess. Pski – should be running 5k’s in easy sub 17 based on his thon time( 2:50) But PR’d just under 18. I should be able to break 2:50 based on my 5k time (17:10) but can only run 2:59:30. You really have to decide what distance you want to race and train for that event and take whatever comes along the way in the shorter races or longer races whatever you choose. I do feel the calculator can tell you your weaknesses, and give you an idea what you need to work on. Ex. I need to work on Aerobic conditioning if I want a sub 2:50 thon. Pski – would have to really start churning out some speed work to get his 5k down in the 16’s. Remember only if you choose that distance. I love short stuff so I have a tendency to want to do intervals and track workouts. I’m trying to change over but it’s hard.

    Woody

  • #13779

    Peter
    Member

    Zeke brought it up 😛 I have in my mind a sub 3 attempt at Boston next April. In order to get there I want to base build now, then sharpen this summer and early fall as I run shorter races and chase PR’s. I threw 36 and 1:24 out there, b/c they’re the next progression for me after doing 37:58 and 1:28:40 last year. After I try for those, then I’ll see where I’m at for a full marathon. It could be 2:59:59, it could be 2:50:30 — I don’t know.

    It is a fine line, like Wisconsin Hoops — are they a 6 seed or should they be a 3? They got hosed, btw…

    I am probably more like you Woody than pski. My shorter race times suggest I should rock and roll at the full 26.2 distance. Just not there yet….

    Peter

  • #13780

    danm
    Member

    If you want to do it right and really track how you are progressing with your base building, then I would suggest you get a Heart Rate monitor if you don’t already own one.

    Step 1 is get to 45 miles per week for a few weeks.

    Step 2 get a HRmax. to do this:

    Jog 15 minutes over to a track,

    run moderately hard for 6-7 minutes,

    5 x 100 meters strides, stretch/walk for a minute

    1 x 800 meters all out

    rest 60 seconds and then

    1 x 400 meters all out

    record the max rate you get right as you cross the line for both intervals.

    Step 3 run a 2400 test

    easy warm up to track 6-8 minutes

    2400 meters at 130 HR rest 90 seconds by jogging in place

    2400 meters at 140 HR rest same all the way down

    2400 meters at 150

    2400 meters at 160

    2400 meters at 170

    Here is what you are trying to do. Ease into the pace so that by about two laps you are 1-2 beats shy of the goal for that interval. Try to sty right at the goal for the entire 2400. Repeat for each level. Record the time it takes to run each one.

    If you find your maxHR is 200 then start at 140 and include a 180 session.

    POst what happens here on Hillrunner. Woody and I will get you working on a base that will blow your mind all based around what happens with these two tests.

    You will need 2-3 months at least

    Dan

  • #13781

    Zeke
    Member

    Dan,

    Are you really HADD in disguise?

    I think HADD’s outline makes intuitive sense and I think his success stories are great. However, you’re posting all this stuff and you haven’t even followed his plan for one season yet. I can’t wait to see how you and Woody perform this summer. Have you always been such a big believer in HRM training? Or are you just fired up from the results you’ve seen so far?

    I’m just curious because you seem more vocal this year on your training methods. I think it’s great. It just seems different than your previous philosophy.

    I want to see you try to convince Ryan to buy a HRM. 😈

  • #13782

    danm
    Member

    You are right. I have learned more in the last 4-5 months about running than I ever had in my previous 12 years. Don’t get me wrong when I say I knew nothing before because I managed to run pretty well for the effort I gave it.

    I was content to run 40 miles a week and run the times I did. But when I was approaching and turned 40 my goals shifted. I have been running 16:15 5k’s for almost the entire time I have been running. If I didn’t change something my times were not likely to change.

    Hadd seemed to hit the nail on the head. The science behind what he says is right and can be backed up in so many places. He and a few others have applied science to Lydiard.

    No, I never did believe that I needed a Heart Rate monitor but now I do.

    Hadd is not there to prick my finger and test my blood as I run and the only thing that can come close to that is basing effort on heart rate. It can clearly define for me where my LT is, my max and all the other paces I should run at as I go through the phases getting ready to compete, and hopefully win the 40-44 year old CARA circuit here in Chicago.

    But to Ryan’s defense, I do know what an easy day is now and I do not need the HRM except when I do either my two workdays or my long run on Sun. So I only wear it about 3 days a week. I will race with it too for races 10k and over. Not as a guide but as a tool to get info from. I will not adjust my pace necessarily in a 10k because I see my HR at a certain level. I should know within a beat or two what it should be for any given pace and I do now.

    Most important is my goal of running Chicago around 2:35. His method will get me there.

  • #13783

    Woody
    Member

    HADD POWER it is awesome ! I’ll be with it for a long time.

    Woody

  • #13784

    Zeke
    Member

    If I didn’t change something my times were not likely to change.

    Dan, I totally agree! One of my favorite quotes “If you want something you’ve never had before, you have to do things you’ve never done before.” I think it applies well to running.

    I admire your courage to shake things up. Once you win the CARA circuit and run 2:35 everyone on here will be asking for advice on following Hadd’s program.

    When does the CARA circuit start? I’m sure everyone here is anxious to see some results.

    Woody, are you going to St. Louis for the half on April 4th?

  • #13785

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    While I love what Hadd has to say and believe there are a lot of nuggets of gold in his writings, I’m not ready to completely recite his writings as a form of all of my training advice.

    First, his writings really aren’t much more than a rehash of Lydiard in a more reader friendly format. While this is a good thing, it has been done before, in some cases in even much simpler terms.

    Second, previous rehashings of Lydiard didn’t require anyone to use auxiliary components nearly as much as Hadd. They still worked just as effectively and had the added bonus of teaching a runner how to work with his or her own body instead of relying on often variant pieces of data gathered from sometimes unreliable sources.

    Third, sometimes I get the feeling Hadd relies a bit too much on science instead of trusting Lydiard’s incredible intuition, which has proven to be much more reliable than science. While I’m the kind of logical thinker who would love all things to fit in a nice little box, the more experience I gain in running, the more I realize running doesn’t work that way. Heck, science still says that going above about 80 mpw is useless but intuition and an overabundance of real world examples show that science hasn’t figured out the whole picture yet.

    I believe that relying on any single source of running advice, no matter how good that source is, is inherently flawed. Our best option is to gain a deep understanding of numerous quality sources (of which Hadd may be one), figure out how they fit together, then figure out how they apply to us as individuals.

  • #13786

    Woody
    Member

    Hadd is the Motts ! I fully understand it and am still learning everyday. One of the big reasons he uses HR training is a lot of his athletes communicate via e-mail and he uses the information from the HR monitor to see how your effort was for a paticular workout and to see your progress. It allows him to structure workouts and daily feedback of when to place the workouts without seeing you everyday. I like Dan have found them very useful on two or three days a week on the work days just under LT pace.

    Ryan — I think if your really serious about qualifying for the Olympic Trials you should get a coach other than yourself or Hadd for that matter , someone who you respect and like (I thought Rubio would be good for you) –who can look at your logs / strentghs and weaknesses objectively and get you on a program to go for it. Hell you got a 42 year old frito-lay bandit a block away from you who you can’t beat right now 🙂

    Zeke- I can’t make it because of the Badminton Team we have a 10 team invitational That weekend but I would love to go. Rubio will be there too

    Woody

  • #13787

    Zeke
    Member

    I believe that relying on any single source of running advice, no matter how good that source is, is inherently flawed. Our best option is to gain a deep understanding of numerous quality sources (of which Hadd may be one), figure out how they fit together, then figure out how they apply to us as individuals.

    My problem is that I get all fired up, read everything I can find, mix them all together, then can’t tell what aspects lead to my results.

  • #13788

    danm
    Member

    I think Zeke hit the nail here.

    The problem is NOT seeing someone’s method thru. Jumping from idea to idea will not give you a base to work from but a scattered mess.

    Think of training your body like doing a major project at work which is really just another term for having a goal. First comes the information gathering phase (reading all you can about what is out there, their methods, philosphy, etc).

    Step 2 would be formalizing the project. Setting up a step-by-step plan and a timeline to go with it.

    Step 3 would be executing the plan

    Step 4 would be analyzing how it went

  • #13789

    Woody
    Member

    I’ve been guilty of that — Trying to find the magic potion. 😀 I think trying a few things is OK , I actually love trial and error. Narrow it down to what worked for you what didn’t and go from there. Once you find something that excites and motivates you and you see some positive results stick with it. Thats why there are hundreds and hundreds of coaches who take snipets from each other and put them into their program with their personality. You have to respect whoever you choose and blend into there personality type. Before that line gets quoted I’m not saying you have to like your coach– But athletes tend to pick-up on the personality of the coach and take a lot of there traits.

    I personally don’t need a motivational coach– ALA pski — I think Pski would be a great coach good motivator been in the trenches. I don’t respond to that I need a guy with tons of knowledge who will give me proven workouts for other athletes he or she coached and let me off on my own , I don’t need any motivation I have plently of that. Now a guy like kooch with a lot of talent might need somebody to ride his ass everyday to get him out there digging. What I’m saying is everybody is different –with different buttons to push the key is finding the right person to push the right buttons.

  • #13790

    Ryan
    Keymaster
    danm wrote:
    The problem is NOT seeing someone’s method thru. Jumping from idea to idea will not give you a base to work from but a scattered mess.

    Of course jumping from one idea to the other is a bad idea. Once you come up with your plan, execute it without wavering. That doesn’t mean you have to rely on one and only one source to come up with that plan, though. Look around at a number of proven sources, note the similarities and differences, then build your own plan. As you gain experience, you can tweak different parts of the plan during every training cycle in the never ending quest to find your ideal plan. However, taking a cookie cutter plan straight from someone who can not customize it to fit your needs is about as helpful as coming up with your own plan without doing the homework.

    danm wrote:
    Think of training your body like doing a major project at work which is really just another term for having a goal. First comes the information gathering phase (reading all you can about what is out there, their methods, philosphy, etc).

    Step 2 would be formalizing the project. Setting up a step-by-step plan and a timeline to go with it.

    Step 3 would be executing the plan

    Step 4 would be analyzing how it went

    You’re right on with these. The key, though, is that you need to read, as well as learn from other sources if available, all you can. Then, you don’t have to pick just one and follow it to the letter. Following something that wasn’t specifically designed just for you to the letter will not yield the best results. We are all a bit different. We have to take from the resources and make them fit our strengths and weaknesses, likes and dislikes, and our goals. This almost always means drawing from multiple sources, including our own past experiences, then creating a personalized plan. Afterward, we can evaluate how things went and adjust accordingly. My point is that relying on one and only one source is a risky proposition. We’re better off doing our research and pulling concepts that we believe will work best from multiple sources. Then, we can tweak along the way.

    For example, in 2002, I had a very Lydiard like base building phase through the spring and into the early summer. Then, I went into 1 month of hill work and 3 months of track work like Lydiard suggests. However, I adapted the workouts to workouts that had a heavy influence from Daniels. I also drew some ideas from Beck, as well as other sources. The results were very good. However, after looking back on it, I have ideas of how to adjust. I want to drop 4 weeks of track work. I want to work in more strides. I want to shorten up the longest of my runs in the final 1-2 months and do them faster. I am very comfortable with the rest of the plan, though. I am taking ideas primarily from two sources, drawing in concepts from a number of other sources, adapting to fit my personal needs and desires, then coming up with my own plan. I don’t think I could expect nearly as effective results if I would rely on one source that did not tailor their suggestions specifically for me.

  • #13791

    Zeke
    Member

    I have ideas of how to adjust. I want to drop 4 weeks of track work. I want to work in more strides. I want to shorten up the longest of my runs in the final 1-2 months and do them faster. I am very comfortable with the rest of the plan, though. I am taking ideas primarily from two sources, drawing in concepts from a number of other sources, adapting to fit my personal needs and desires, then coming up with my own plan.

    Are you planning this for 2004? What are your goals? I haven’t really heard much from you with regards to the upcoming season.

  • #13792

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Yes, I am planning on this for 2004. I don’t have any hard set goals at the moment, first I want to re-establish my base. However, I would like to set a marathon PR this fall, most likely either at Lakefront or Chicago. I also have my half PR and my 15k PR in the back of my mind.

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