Should I still run Mystic?

Welcome! Forums Running Forum Should I still run Mystic?

This topic contains 53 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  Ryan 14 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #1907

    randys
    Participant

    I’ve been working hard to overcome the injury from last month. The injury was caused by limited range of motion in my upper thigh muscles. I’ve been pretty aggressive in treating it; hoping to still running Mystic on Oct 24’th.

    In addition to stretching twice a day I also see a PT (Physical Therapist) on Mon,Wed and Fri’s and an ART practicioner (Active Release Technique, a type of deep tissue massage) on Tue, Thu and Sat’s.

    I discovered on Sunday (based on advice from the ART guy) that if I stretch at the first sign of pain (during the run) I can complete long runs with only a little pain. I was very encouraged when I did 16 miles on Sunday with 3 short stops to stretch. Thats 3 miles more than I have run since this injury began (not counting several 2 a day’s of 8 or 9 miles each).

    Over the past 5 weeks I managed to maintain most of my normal milage; running around 60 mpw, down from 70. The biggest gap is the lack of continueous runs over 13 miles (missed 2 24’s and 3 16’s). Also some of my originally planned sharpening workouts were changed to tempo runs.

    Since running my last marathon on May 2’nd I resumed long runs the first week of June. Before the injury I did 6 runs of 18-22 and 8 runs of 16. Along with weekly 13 mile medium long and 11 mile mp runs (both of which I have continued to do even since the injury).

    With less than 2 weeks to go I need to decide if its worth running Mystic.

    My medium range goal is to run under 3:20 next May (at the flatter Long Island Marathon) but I wanted to lower the gap from my current PB of 3:29 (from Long Island 6 months ago) to around mid 3:20’s this fall.

    The lack of long runs for 5 weeks, combined with the need to stop for several minutes during the race (to stretch) means my original goal is not likely to happen; I doubt I can match my race time from May (even though that time was soft).

    So should I even bother running a race knowing I can’t reach my original goal. Or is it enough to get out and do your best with what you have to work with on that day?

    Part of me likes the idea of not having the usual pressure that goes with racing; knowing I can’t run it well allows me to run it for fun.

    I also already paid to run and booked my accomodations before the injury.

    Run it as best I can; or forget about it and look ahead to next May?

    Randy

  • #16328

    r-at-work
    Member

    first off I’m slow to begin with… but three years ago I was coming off an injury and only had a long run of 8 miles… I decide to start, run 10 miles and then stop… it was the innaugural DC(turned out to be the only one)… I figured I could stop and just take the Metro when I got tired… my husband knowing me better said “see you at 2pm”…I ran the first 10 then walked & jogged the last 16, had beer, listened to other people’s stories, hung out afterwards, did eventually take the Metro home and had more fun than I had ever had… before or since…

    on the other hand it wasn’t a race, it wasn’t even much of an “event”… decided right then and there I was going to be in better shape from then on…I think I did it since it was paid for & I had hoped it would be an annual event and I would have done ‘the first’…

    guess what I’m saying is… make of list of why you should and why you shouldn’t run the thing… hey it might be fun, it’s paid for… BUT will you be in so much pain and will it set you back even more? maybe there is another goal besides time… like testing your treatment, maybe not… I would talk it over with the PT person & TPR/massage person as well…

    -R

  • #16329

    cameron
    Member

    i’d ask the RD if you could drop to the 10M…especially if the trip is paid for.

  • #16330

    randys
    Participant

    My back-up plan was to switch to the 10 mile race when the marathon seemed out of the question. I am certain the RD would allow it; both races start at the same time and place and neither race is very large (under 2000 runners combined).

    The only reason I am debating that choice is the encouraging results on Sunday. Before that I had no chance of covering the distance, now it is at least a possibility if I run it for fun.

    I am leaning towards running the full but doing it at my training pace, stopping to stretch as needed, as the kick-off to the base phase for next May’s Long Island marathon.

    And if the RD allows it (both races run the same course and use the same timing mats for the 1st 8 miles) I will see if I can make the call during the race.

    At this years Long Island marathon both the full and half started at the same place and runners did’nt have to make a ‘call’ one way or the other until mile 11 (where the course split off for the full).

    Either way I will certainly not be running with the usual pressure to reach my time goal. I may enjoy that experience, especially at Mystic, a very scenic marathon.

    Randy

  • #16331

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    Personally, I wouldn’t do it because I couldn’t see the benefit in doing so. However, I’ll just say think about the pros and cons of doing the marathon as a training run. What will you get out of it? What would you get out of doing the 10 miler or not doing either? I’m not seeing the benefit of doing the full marathon but maybe you have a reason for wanting to do so.

  • #16332

    randys
    Participant

    Pros:

    1. “Alone/Me Time”: I get a weekend all to myself. I have two daughters (6 and 13), who I love dearly, but, some time alone is a nice change of pace. Not to mention my wife and I have been together 25 years so a little time apart can be a mini-vacation.

    I love my family and they are very understanding about the 8-10 hours I run every week but a little time apart can be nice too.

    2. Socializing/Shopping: This race is setup to offer maximum socializing time. The day before has a full scheule of activities with plenty of time to hang out with other runners. My family has little interest in running, and is bored to death when I talk about it. Its nice to spend time with people who share my interest in running.

    And while I have 2 running stores within 45 minutes of my home neither has the same selection and prices usually available at the race expo. Winter will be here before you know it so a chance to expand my winter running clothing selection is very timely.

    3. Long run support: Either way, as my injury heals, I will be returning to long runs for my spring race (I don’t follow 18 week programs; I run fairly high milage year round and add tempo, hills and intensity as the race approachs). It would be nice to not deal with hassle of water.

    Plus, I must have run every mile of road within a 12 mile radius of my home a zillion times (actually a 12 mile semi-circle since I live along the Great South Bay). To run my long run on scenic route, with water support, someone calling splits and post race bagels and beer seems like a good deal.

    Cons:

    1. Costs: Although the race is paid for I could still cancel the hotel and ferry. Savings: About $150.00

    2. You Owe Me Factor: If I go away for the weekend I have no doubt my family will soon enough be exacting a price in “You had your weekend; now you owe me……”.

    3. Extending recovery time: This is the most significant downside. It’s possible that I could more fully recover and return to normal sooner if I either hold off on running long until November or take some time off from running completly for a few weeks or more.

    4. Attitude: Running races for fun may make it easiier, in future races, to slow or ease up when the inevitibale pain sets in during any serious race effort.

    On balance I am leaning towards at least going to Mystic. I can reduce the cons considerable by dropping back to the 10 mile race. Never raced that distance so my finish time will be an automatic PB, and my injury has less of an impact on my performance at that distance.

    Of course I have not been training with that distance in mind so it would be a pretty soft PB.

    Oh, one more PRO. My family is invited to a birthday party for a friends kid (age 3) on the same day as the race. Tonight my wife asked if I was going to Mystic or would be around for the party. I may go to Mystic just to miss the party. A house full of 3 year olds has to be worse than any pain I may feel at mile 21!

    Randy

  • #16333

    r-at-work
    Member

    after hearing that you would consider running the marathon ‘at training pace’ I felt like I had to add that I did a 20 miler three weeks ago with just that in mind… coaches told me to start ’embarassingly slow’, work on not getting excited, and practice drinking out of those pesky cups… did all that…

    what was really nice was that I got lucky and found someone who was about my training speed and we chatted almost the whole way… and I ran the best 20 miles I’ve EVER run… which showed me how much I’ve improved this year AND how running the first half slow actually pays off at the end…

    but you have lots of things to balance out… to me it sounds like the big factors are $150 and a house full of 3 year olds… tough choice…

    -R

  • #16334

    Zeke
    Member
    RandyS wrote:
    3. Extending recovery time: This is the most significant downside. It’s possible that I could more fully recover and return to normal sooner if I either hold off on running long until November or take some time off from running completly for a few weeks or more.

    This would be the biggest factor for me. I’d hate to “screw around” and get re-injured or extend my recovery time. I’d focus on getting healthy, then cranking up for May.

  • #16335

    Woody
    Member

    Randy ,

    FWIW- i just ran Chicago and was suppose to only run 20 miles as a training run- I’m Running Cal- Internatinal Dec 5th– Well the pace I was running felt very comfortable and instead of getting off – I just finished it off for fun. Had a wonderful time looking at all the sites instead of grinding. And although it was about 15 mins slower than the shape i’m in — those last 6 miles – are a lot different than just running 20. I took a couple extra days of recovery when I could have got off at 20 and been right back on the program for my goal thon. So I would be careful — I like Zeke’s suggestion!

    Good Luck Bro!

    Woody

  • #16336

    cameron
    Member

    Yo woodman…i saw your Chi-town result and was wondering what was up.

    Dan Marks looks like he ran a good race.

  • #16337

    Zeke
    Member
    cameron wrote:
    Dan Marks looks like he ran a good race.

    I thought we weren’t allowed to utter his name around here any more. 😈

  • #16338

    cameron
    Member

    ummm…i must be missing something…

  • #16339

    Zeke
    Member
    cameron wrote:
    ummm…i must be missing something…

    I was referring to this thread…

    https://www.hillrunner.com/forums/topic/mental-toughness/

  • #16340

    Anonymous
    cameron wrote:
    Dan Marks looks like he ran a good race.

    Not the race he knew he would run, though. I suppose it is easy for him to say he had unforseen freak weather or illness, though. He claimed Ryan had a nice built in excuse but he managed to build in his own excuse even while telling Ryan how precisely he could predict his performance. It would also be easy for him to say he was close but he was the one arguing that close is not good enough and he had the way to precisely predict his performance. As he told Ryan:

    “I’ll tell you right now that I am going to run 2:45 + or – 2 minutes at chicago barring no unforseen freak weather or illness.”

    https://www.hillrunner.com/forums/topic/mental-toughness/

    He at least implied 2:43:00 to 2:47:00. Ryan had the balls to step up and admit the mistakes he made when he failed. I wonder if Dan also does.

  • #16341

    cameron
    Member

    wow…didn’t read that thread…guess i should lay off the HRM-speak… 😆

  • #16342

    Zeke
    Member
    Devil’s advocate wrote:
    I wonder if Dan also does.

    I don’t know Dan that well, but I imagine he has or would – probably not here though.

    He’d probably say 2:47:57 is closer to his goal (2:43 – 2:47) than Ryan’s DNF was to his. He might even mention something about how Ryan’s listening to his body didn’t seem to work out very well and say that if Ryan was wearing a HRM he would have known he was going too hard too early.

    But who knows, Cameron was wearing a HRM and although he said he was “too hot”, he didn’t back off the pace.

  • #16343

    cameron
    Member

    DM’s chip time was 2:47:57…not bad guesswork IMHO. (although not quite +/- 2 min of 2:45)

  • #16344

    cameron
    Member

    But who knows, Cameron was wearing a HRM and although he said he was “too hot”, he didn’t back off the pace.

    Sometimes you gotta redline to see what’s in the tank… 😆

  • #16345

    Woody
    Member

    Cameron–

    Well- I’m training for the CIM – and I was sick right before that 1/2 marathon about two weeks ago — so I had to take some time off and with that I still need some 2:30 hour runs at a certain HR — so I decided to run Chicago and get off at 20. Well since I backed it off about 30 secs per mile –it felt real easy so I pulled the move –which is why it’s hard to train in races and kept on going cause It felt like a sunday long run and it was a nice day and I was enjoying it. But like I said to Randy — I’ve missed a good work session that was planned for Wed and just ran easy because I went 26.2 –instead of 20. So in hind sight probably wouldn’t do it again — Give me your e-mail and I’ll send you some info from the race. HR thing doesn’t go too well over here — so let me know.

    On another note — Man where has all the Love gone? Just because theres a difference of opinion and some banter- were gonna bash on Dan? Man he ran a gusty race and Stayed right on course at 6:10 pace until 21- He tells people what his plans are and goes after it — he runs very gusty and fearless and will always finish the race no matter what! He showed that at Boston – walking two miles and finishing even though he was injured. I have the big time respect for him .

    He stayed right where he should of His HR and paced matched up perfectly- He just needed a few more longer runs at MP+30-40 secs and he would have finished it off at 2:42. We know what he needs and he will make adjustments for Boston and come close to breaking 2:40.

    Randy Sorry to steal your thread — I was really trying to help your decision and pass on my experience –And it gets pulled out into something else. It’s too bad — were all in this marathon together and should be trying to help each other and a guy gets bashed for running 2:47 — While running 2:42 pace through 21. What’s that all about ?

    That’s why you don’t see me on here anymore – I scanned that HR monitor thread and I really had some good info for the people who are into it. But I didn’t want to get into the banter War — Don’t need that anymore — Just trying to get faster like everybody else .

    Peace Bro!

    Woody

  • #16346

    danm
    Member

    Well my wife is gonna freak if I told her I posted here….but oh well.

    Whoever the anon poster is come out and show yerself you coward.

    Not to bash anyone but Randy I think I would tend to agree that you should not run this race if you are teetering on the brink of injury. Woody gave a good example of how good intentions run amok when he continued on and finished the Chi marathon. His legs are beat up and now he has to miss a few crucial days.

    However I definitely understand the need to get away, spend some time with fellow runners and can’t blame you for wanting a little of that.

    Chi marathon was a fun day although the weather was too hot for me (58 degrees at the start). But I ran according to the plan my coach put forth all of which was based on some important workouts leading up to the marathon.

    Ironically, I chose a per mile pace to stick to and figured I would watch my HR to make sure it didn’t go out of the zone (160-164). From mile 3 I never saw my HR stray from 159-162 range as I clicked off 6:09-6:11’s.

    By 22 I knew I was running out of fuel and the legs began to turn to wood. But I chose to gut it out because I knew a sub-2:50 was easily in the bag and I was running for a 5 man team whom I did not want to let down.

    After going over the race with my coach we know precisely what we need to do to rectify the problems I encountered at Chicago. Besides deciding a little too late in the game to run it and leaving myself only about 3 solid months of training, as a high percentage Fast Twitch type runner, fueling late in a marathon will always be a problem I may face.

    So as Woody stated, lots more running at the M+20 – M+40 pace, more than one 20 miler (which is all I got in for Chicago) and upping the mileage as a whole, I should be able to lower my per-mile pace for Boston and kick some royal butt.

    And you know what is the coolest thing (Cameron, this goes for you too), I have Boston Qualifier to-boot!!!!!!! (and probably back up in the first corral)

    Dan – be good.

  • #16347

    Double
    Member

    Danno – My intentions are to go to Boston and bust 2:40 as well. As usual, I will use a home built plan based on mind melding the aerobic/anaerobic systems into an overdrive to the tenth power scenario. See the future, be the future. We should do at least one half together so we can sharpen the iron.

  • #16348

    danm
    Member

    Sounds good. Perhaps you would be willing to venture down to Northern IL around March 16th and run the infamously hilly and oh-so-Boston-like March Madness half in wonderful Cary, IL.

    Unlike you I will be marching to the Hadd-drums with the other select few who have sold their souls to the system.

    Ten-hut!

    Dan

  • #16349

    Ryan
    Keymaster
    cameron wrote:
    wow…didn’t read that thread…guess i should lay off the HRM-speak… 😆

    You only need to lay off insisting elite athletes are racing with them without evidence to back up the claim and insisting that all methods other than HRM training are inferior.

    FWIW, I have received a few e-mails by people who thought I was the anon poster. Let me be perfectly clear in saying that I was not. I do not post anonymously in any running forum, especially on my own website. While Dan may have fallen slightly short of his stated target, that can happen to any of us for various reasons. I know what having a bad race is all about, I have had many of them in my nearly 15 years of running competitively. I know better than to criticize one aspect of someone’s race when a race doesn’t go well for that person. It would be easy for someone to claim that a HRM would have made all the difference for me at Lakefront but I know more about what happened and what I was thinking than anyone else and I know it would have made no difference at all. I ignored every red flag my body was throwing in my face, why would I have listened to a HRM telling me exactly the same thing as what I was already ignoring? Likewise, I’m not going to try to suggest that I have any idea why Dan didn’t hit 2:45 or what he could have done differently when he knows those things much better than me. The results speak for themselves and, this year, Dan is the better marathoner than me. No disrespect to him but I hope to change that next year as I continue my comeback from last year’s ordeal but, for now, that’s where we stand. I commend him on a race that was run much more intelligently than I ran my attempt and I wish him well in his quest for sub-2:40.

    As for goals, I respect everyone’s decision to do what they wish with their goals but I have chosen to subscribe to Mark Nenow and Coach Conway’s theory. Choose a specific goal and keep it to yourself. I find that I am much more confident and relaxed and, as a result, I run better when only a close circle of people for whom I hold a great deal of trust and respect know the specifics of my goals.

  • #16350

    If you want to catch a rat,

    You do not need a fancy cat.

  • #16351

    Anonymous

    I normally just lurk and observe, but think the following two knuckleheads need to be set straight:

    Woody:

    Get real and hop off Dan’s sack, he invited the criticism when he started it in another thread by bashing Ryan and others here over a simple difference of opinion. He dug his own grave right there and he lost respect BIG TIME with an idiotic and classless move like that.

    Dan:

    I have a pretty good idea who the “coward” is, but will knowing his or her identity make the criticisms any less true? Obviously what he or she had to say hits home if you’re concerned with who he or she is and obviously he or she doesn’t give a crap what your personal opinion of his or her online “bravery”. It doesn’t get much more self-evident, you talked the talk but couldn’t walk the walk. Can’t you be a man and accept criticism without making it some kind of personal thing? By the way, I seem to remember reading in August or September that your goal was to go under 2:40, I guess your confidence diminished and so did your goal. Also if you honestly believe what you say about your muscle fiber makeup, then why aren’t you out running sub 2:00 800m and sub 4:15 mile races rather than toil in vain to better your marathon PR? Seems like you’re trying to fight nature, and that’s a foolish move by someone who knows as much about the science of the sport as you say you do. Just think about it and maybe think about your excuses more before you put them out there.

    Good running to all.

    Back to lurking,

    Adam

  • #16352

    danm
    Member

    Man I hate thinking about the fact that I am stooping to your level here but here she goes.

    I have already run sub 2 for 800 and 4:22 road mile in my late 30’s. (turn 41 in a month) while that was fun stuff it isn’t what challenges me.

    You’re right about wanting to break 2:40. Still the goal and I am hoping to do it at Boston. But if you have run a few steps in your life, and I hate to presume anything here about posters, I am assuming you have, even the best intentions can get sidelined with an injury.

    I am not a complainer, I take what comes. But I was realistic about my goal time and needed to amend it as i approached the race date. Once I was pretty confidant of where I was, I was able to say within a few minutes. A little too warm of weather and a monstrous headwind for the final 3 miles kept me not reaching the goal to the second. But hey, that’s marathoning.

    The key with these forums is to try and add value to those who are seeking knowledge. When someone so blatantly disregards a training tool as being not needed yet claims to be all knowing, that is not good information. Go read 76 Toughest Workouts and checkout what some of them do…might see a few HRM workouts in there!

    Dan

  • #16353

    Ryan
    Keymaster
    danm wrote:
    When someone so blatantly disregards a training tool as being not needed yet claims to be all knowing, that is not good information.

    Likewise with one who claims that a tool that may or may not be useful to some people is required for maximal performance and claims that elites are using them at the Olympics when all evidence offered suggests such claims are false.

    By the way, has anyone here claimed to be all knowing? Has anyone stated that HRMs are never of any use to anyone? I don’t remember such claims. If they have been made, I’d love to see references because my memory must be getting bad.

  • #16354

    danm
    Member

    Gee, it didn’t take a wizard to see that coming.

  • #16355

    Zeke
    Member
    Adam wrote:
    It doesn’t get much more self-evident, you talked the talk but couldn’t walk the walk.

    While I don’t plan on wearing a HRM during a race anytime soon, this is the argument that doesn’t make any sense to me.

    Dan wore a HRM and missed his goal by like a minute. Ryan ran by feel (and ignored all the “feelings” his body was sending him) and DNF’d. Yet somehow Dan can’t walk the walk.

    I know this is Ryan’s site and he’s a good guy, but why not rip on “Mr. I run by feel” since it seems he had a far worse performance on race day?

  • #16356

    Ed 1
    Member

    If some one claims that another stated something and cannot prove it that should not be let go. Misquoting some one purposefully is wrong. Doing it by accident or by not reading through the entire post is a correctable wrong. But in both cases an apology is warranted. Ryan DNF ok big deal, that does not prove or disprove anything – people can ignore how they feel and they can ignore the HRM – you’ll get the same results – trouble on the run.

    Let’s keep things honest here – quotes should be proven. If this is not done it will end up being just another sexed up, threat filled, lie spewing web site.

  • #16357

    danm
    Member

    Let that be said.

    Now I don’t claim to be a marathoning guru but my coach is and I feel I have a pretty good handle on it but still tons more to learn. But I have entered 5 and finished 5. I have stepped off the course a few races in my lifetime too and it happens. But it has never been from lack of preparation or running too fast. Typically it is from an injury or upset stomach or cramp, etc. No one likes to quit.

    Using a training tool that simply gives you more information than what you feel just seems right to me.

    If someone came up to me and asked, “Dude, we need you to drive this car from Chicago out to the suburbs some 26 miles away, but… we removed all the gauges like the odometer, speedometer, gas gauge, etc, could you do it for us?”

    Sure I could. I could drive by feel and probably do a pretty good job of it. But think of all the speed zones I would go thru on the way there! That would require some serious guesswork. And what about gas? Is it full, half empty, what? Man, it would just be so much easier if I could get the feedback from those missing gauges!

    More and more of the top world runners use some sort of scientific device(s) for training/feedback. It is just being plain stubborn to not acknowledge this. Even Wetmore uses them on the guys.

    The key is not to be so closed to the idea as to ward off potential good runners by trying to make them feel it is not necessary.

    Like the gauges in the car, they aren’t necessary. But who’d be a fool not to use them?

    Dan

  • #16358

    Ed 1
    Member

    As right as you may be about it having some use for some people it does not warrant misquoting some one for personal gain.

  • #16359

    danm
    Member

    I don’t get what you are talking about Ed

  • #16360

    Ed 1
    Member

    Dan I apologize but I read some of the posts out of order and it came off like you claimed that Ryan stated that he was all knowing – when Ryan never stated that. If this was not your intention then I do indeed apologize.

    But if you were quoting Ryan as stating that he was all knowing I would like to see info where to find that thread.

    Again if that was not your intention then I am sorry.

    BTW why does your wife not want you posting here?

  • #16361

    Zeke
    Member
    Ed 1 wrote:
    …it came off like you claimed that Ryan stated that he was all knowing – when Ryan never stated that.

    Usually people that are “all knowing” don’t come out and state that claim themselves. It’s usually an impression other people get by their actions.

  • #16362

    danm
    Member

    Look Ed, what I said way back when was out of line. No excuses.

    Don’t try to get into or start a mud slinging fest. Just not worth it.

    The key here is to try and give constructive advice about running. I have managed to eek out a few decent times on the low miles I have run for my lifetime average. (Started running in 1990 at the age of 27). As of late I have been averaging about 50 a week. Probably more like low 40’s overall.

    I don’t claim to know it all but have had the good fortune of training with and under the guidance of some of the world’s best coaches. Mostly during my tenure as a speedskater/cyclist. Now in running.

    The point is, my ability to “walk the talk” is more than justified.

    Dan

  • #16363

    Zeke
    Member
    danm wrote:
    the guidance of some of the world’s best coaches… Now in running.

    Hmmm, I’m glad you like him and are happy, but I’m not sure if I’d label your coach as one of the “world’s best.” Who has he coached to great success? I’m still waiting to see some results. About every 2 weeks someone on letsrun.com ask about specific results under this program and no ever provides any hard data. Maybe because you’ve all sworn yourselves to some brotherhood oath or something. I’m not sure.

  • #16364

    danm
    Member

    As soon as the world discovers who “he” is I don’t think there’ll be any questions.

    Thanks, Zeke.

  • #16365

    Ryan
    Keymaster
    danm wrote:
    If someone came up to me and asked, “Dude, we need you to drive this car from Chicago out to the suburbs some 26 miles away, but… we removed all the gauges like the odometer, speedometer, gas gauge, etc, could you do it for us?”

    To be a fair comparison, at least for some people, it would be more like (but, of course, not exactly) “you get all your gauges but your tachometer.” You know what? Even when I drove my manual transmission vehicles, I didn’t need a tachometer and it didn’t even help me when I did look at it. Once I drove the vehicle a bit, I knew when to shift. The tachometer just confirmed what I already knew, much like what I personally found with the HRM. On a vehicle with an automatic transmission, is there any benefit to a tachometer? I have yet to find a benefit to the tachometer on my current vehicle.

    danm wrote:
    More and more of the top world runners use some sort of scientific device(s) for training/feedback. It is just being plain stubborn to not acknowledge this. Even Wetmore uses them on the guys.

    First off, Wetmore uses them about once or twice per season. To suggest that’s really using them for any significant purpose is ridiculous. Trust me, I’m watching the use of everything out there. I’m lucky enough to have a bit of an inside track on the devices used by the group that probably uses more devices than anyone else out there. I find it all fascinating but the more I watch this stuff, the more I realize it’s the training that matters and everything else out there, at least at this time, has limited benefits at best and much of it is just window dressing.

    danm wrote:
    The key is not to be so closed to the idea as to ward off potential good runners by trying to make them feel it is not necessary.

    Just because someone says something has limited, if any, benefit for some people doesn’t mean they are closed to the idea. Sometimes, it means they are open to the idea but have actually found out that the results are not as impressive as some would like to believe.

    danm wrote:
    Like the gauges in the car, they aren’t necessary. But who’d be a fool not to use them?

    Unless they are unnecessary gauges like a tachometer on a car with an automatic transmission.

  • #16366

    Ed 1
    Member

    Danm did you miss the three apologies in my thread? If so here is another – if you had no intention on being slanderous then I Apologize.

  • #16367

    Anonymous
    Zeke wrote:
    Ed 1 wrote:
    …it came off like you claimed that Ryan stated that he was all knowing – when Ryan never stated that.

    Usually people that are “all knowing” don’t come out and state that claim themselves. It’s usually an impression other people get by their actions.

    Well, Dan said in his own words and in no uncertain terms that the person in question did make that claim, in his post in this thread from 11:38 a.m. yesterday.

    From another thread:

    danm wrote:
    Perhaps all 6 posters on this site want to be informed of the “Ryan method. The only way known to man to train. Run a 120 miles a week like me and you too can run a 35 minute 10k.”

    Tweaking a the numbers to account for percentages of visitors to koolade drinkers, the exact same could be said for Dan’s “coach” and the moronic site he enjoys immunity on. I’ve never seen anyone other than hacks scrambling for that guy’s input. Wake up, bub.

  • #16368

    Zeke
    Member

    Well, Dan said in his own words and in no uncertain terms that the person in question did make that claim, in his post in this thread from 11:38 a.m. yesterday.

    Ben,

    I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here. That Ryan is a know-it-all, that Ryan is not a know-it-all, that Dan claimed Ryan is a know-it-all?

    Tweaking a the numbers to account for percentages of visitors to koolade drinkers…

    I’m not sure what this means either.

    I’ve never seen anyone other than hacks scrambling for that guy’s input.

    While I only know a few people using this program, I wouldn’t go so far as to call them hacks. I believe one guy is like a 1:10 half marathon guy. I wouldn’t call Dan and Woody hacks either. While I’m sure you’ve run 1:04 for a half – we can’t all be blessed like you.

  • #16369

    Ryan
    Keymaster
    Zeke wrote:
    I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here. That Ryan is a know-it-all, that Ryan is not a know-it-all, that Dan claimed Ryan is a know-it-all?

    I don’t even know why I’m getting involved in this but it was obvious that Dan stated that I claimed to be all knowing. Of course, when I asked him to reference where I made that claim, I got no response. Come to think of it, that’s the same response I got when I asked him to reference where I made the claim that HRMs were useless for everyone, even though he stated that I also made that claim. It’s amazing how easy it is for people to say someone else claimed something but how hard it is to actually reference those claims. Makes you wonder if the claims were actually ever made.

  • #16370

    Zeke
    Member
    Ryan wrote:
    …it was obvious that Dan stated that I claimed to be all knowing. Of course, when I asked him to reference where I made that claim, I got no response.

    Yeah and I wrote… “Usually people that are “all knowing” don’t come out and state that claim themselves. It’s usually an impression other people get by their actions.”

    Just because you don’t come out and say “I know it all” doesn’t mean that others can’t perceive you to be that way. Things like “Trust me, I’m watching the use of everything out there. I’m lucky enough to have a bit of an inside track…” are good indicators.

  • #16371

    Ryan
    Keymaster
    Zeke wrote:
    Yeah and I wrote… “Usually people that are “all knowing” don’t come out and state that claim themselves. It’s usually an impression other people get by their actions.”

    He stated I claimed something. That’s different than stating that people got an impression of something, whether right or wrong, based on reading into words I post in a forum. I have little control of what impressions people get of me because of impresonal forum posts. I have every bit of control over what I actually state or claim. Don’t you think it’s possible that Dan has given people the impression that he thinks he’s all knowing? I never stated that he claimed he was because he didn’t but some of his statements could give one the impression. Nearly every one of us here has probably stated something on this forum that one could take as a “know-it-all” type of comment but we don’t go around telling each other that we claim we are all knowing.

  • #16372

    Anonymous
    Zeke wrote:
    Ryan wrote:
    …it was obvious that Dan stated that I claimed to be all knowing. Of course, when I asked him to reference where I made that claim, I got no response.

    Yeah and I wrote… “Usually people that are “all knowing” don’t come out and state that claim themselves. It’s usually an impression other people get by their actions.”

    Just because you don’t come out and say “I know it all” doesn’t mean that others can’t perceive you to be that way. Things like “Trust me, I’m watching the use of everything out there. I’m lucky enough to have a bit of an inside track…” are good indicators.

    Whatsa matter with yer eyes, son? You seem like a sharp enough feller, so I can’t figger out why you’re actin’ so dang slow. Just read the goddam quote yourself!

    danm wrote:
    Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:38 am

    When someone so blatantly disregards a training tool as being not needed yet claims to be all knowing, that is not good information.

    You’ve been following this stuff like the rest of us, right? Who d’ya think is the “someone” that Dan can’t seem to find the balls to call out by name and comes right out and says that this “someone” has claimed to be all knowing?

    Oh, and I meant to say “ratio” where I typed “percentages”, I got confused and fucked up there.

    Woody and Dan sure as hell ain’t above hack status, ditto fer a feller with a 1:10 half-marathon PR. If you’re an open man and you can’t beat the best gals, or even the best schoolgirls, in your country then yer a hack at best. You don’t gotta run a 1:04 half to have a decent inkling of where a 1:10 half PR or slower puts you in the sport, you just gotta be a tiny bit blessed between the ears. And that’s coming from another hack and a confirmed idiot.

  • #16373

    Anonymous

    Magpie at his best or should we say Wong Fei Hung 😆

  • #16374

    GTF
    Member

    While I recently changed my login from Wong Fei-Hung to this one, and did not post on this forum under any other name previously, I always post under a registered name — a consistent one until the recent change, which will also be consistent from here on out — and do not post anonymously, that is for the likes of you, a gutless, petty one who is completely mistaken and clearly has nothing of substance to contribute. This is my second and hopefully final post on this tragic thread. I do not know who you are, nor would I care to — if you cannot lay it on the line and face the heat here then you never could when it truly counts.

  • #16375

    Anonymous
    Zeke wrote:
    Adam wrote:
    It doesn’t get much more self-evident, you talked the talk but couldn’t walk the walk.

    While I don’t plan on wearing a HRM during a race anytime soon, this is the argument that doesn’t make any sense to me.

    Dan wore a HRM and missed his goal by like a minute. Ryan ran by feel (and ignored all the “feelings” his body was sending him) and DNF’d. Yet somehow Dan can’t walk the walk.

    I know this is Ryan’s site and he’s a good guy, but why not rip on “Mr. I run by feel” since it seems he had a far worse performance on race day?

    Well, it didn’t make sense to me to make the claim that he could predict his performance within two minutes and then not follow through. See, I don’t see it as being about who came closest to the goal, I’m not going to play around with trying to soft sell things. Bottom line is that they both failed to meet their stated objectives, neither one walked the walk, and like Devil’s advocate I did notice that Dan did include built-in excuses. That’s not a rip, it’s just the facts. The why was explained in the first part of the post. Ryan came forward and laid out what he thought went wrong, that ground has already been trod, and unlike Dan he didn’t wait until he was called out to face the music. Ryan has his own issues and doesn’t seem to have a major problem with honest criticism. What he ends up doing with the criticism is up to him. It also took Dan only a matter of weeks to find it in himself to be contrite, after he saw negative repercussions for himself.

    I don’t think any of that matters now, because what I’ve read in the posts, like yours, that have come since mine has been educational. I can see now that you’re right, it does no good to ask hard questions to either one, honest and introspective answers are not going to come, they have to (hopefully) learn their lessons out on the road. It seems like after 10+ years of being in the game that Dan doesn’t have a handle on how to correctly develop the most important system he’d need in a race like the marathon (something you pointed out), faults his genetics, and then thinks Boston has good odds of being a PR course. Dan not only relishes a challenge, he seems to like to stack the cards against himself. I’m not sure what that means, but I do have my theories. I also didn’t know about Dan’s injury previously because I didn’t see anything about it on here. This was a lesson for me, I should have just stayed in lurk mode. I’ll be watching because on a certain level it’ll be interesting to see how these things play out. No hard feelings to anyone and I wish these two and you and everyone else who visits here the best and hope they figure out how to accomplish their running goals.

    Run well.

    Adam

  • #16376

    Zeke
    Member
    Adam wrote:

    Well, it didn’t make sense to me to make the claim that he could predict his performance within two minutes…

    Yea, I thought he was a little adamant about that prediction. If I remember correctly, awhile ago, he thought he could predict his marathon time to within 1 minute using a HRM. For me, too much can happen between 0 and 26.2 to think I can set a goal within within 2.3 seconds per mile of my actual time.

    Adam wrote:
    This was a lesson for me, I should have just stayed in lurk mode.

    Why is that? It’d be nice if we had more lurking “come out” and throw in their 2 cents. It wouldn’t be much of a message board if everyone lurked.

  • #16377

    Double
    Member

    Boston is a PR course. It has a fairly big net downhill. My fastest marathon is on that course.

  • #16378

    pski
    Member

    Hey Dave, I got back on line to argue with ya!! I only think Boston is a PR course if you either have sledgehammer quads like you do have, or train to pound the living hell out of yourself so you can move the last 5 miles 😉

    Having saw the Lakefront in which Ryan ran I can only say, conditions were brutal for a one way course. No one predicts time there, they just survive or die. to Ryan’s credit he went for it, balls in hand and failed gloriously.

    My coaching attempt really went south, Krischbaum DNF. Walz DNF, Kooch couldn’t be motivated to train through though he really tried and hit the injury bug and other bums in the road, but scrambled on his own to mop up train and run a 3:05. Cameron ran with balls in hand in those conditions, PR pace 1:29 to the half before fading to a still BQ of 3:09.

    DD is a US national team rep for ULTRARUNNING. He’d figure out 26>2 in a hurricane, and even he was almost 7 minutes off PR!

    Walz and Kirschbaum were kind of bit by my own mistake, you train for a certain time and want to say the hell with it, I’m running for time, what do us HACKS have to lose. Nothing but a little foolish pride.

    Now it’s my turn, my last HACK at a marathon, NYC, Nov 7th. It’s always been my goal to break 2:50, fairly modest according to some of you running kings. I’m not conderned about conditions here, there’s no turning back, I know if conditions are good, I can do it, if not I will risk it all to the crash and burn trying to do it anyway. My family will still love me at the finish line. God will know I gave my best on the training I did. My friends will know I used up what I had and left it all out there.

    All I do know is the last mile will be as close to death without going there that I can possibly get. Rock On. PSKI

  • #16379

    Zeke
    Member
    pski wrote:
    My coaching attempt really went south, Krischbaum DNF. Walz DNF, Kooch …scrambled on his own to mop up train and run a 3:05. Cameron ran…a BQ of 3:09.

    Who would’ve guessed that Kooch would have the best race out of that group?

    Have a great race in NYC. Looking forward to hearing how it goes.

  • #16380

    Ryan
    Keymaster
    pski wrote:
    Walz and Kirschbaum were kind of bit by my own mistake, you train for a certain time and want to say the hell with it, I’m running for time, what do us HACKS have to lose. Nothing but a little foolish pride.

    This was actually the root of my problems, also. The moment I left Double was the moment I decided to time trial it instead of racing it. I wanted sub-2:40 when the conditions didn’t seem so bad, I went for PR or bust when the conditions worsened. In the end, I burned myself by going after something that was just not going to happen on that day. Walz and Kirschbaum were not alone out there in not making the wise decision to adjust to the conditions. It’s actually kind of ironic that I did so well two years ago by making the correct decision to adjust when others made the rookie mistake of not adjusting but, with more experience under my belt, I was the one making the rookie mistake this time around.

    Have a good one in New York. I know you’ll be making better decisions on the course than some of us did at Lakefront.

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