Training Plan: Comments anyone?

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This topic contains 26 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  randys 13 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #2031

    randys
    Participant

    At the end of each training cycle I always look back to see what worked, what didn’t, and how training can be improved.

    Since racing Sunday developing my new plan has been on my mind. I have debated the pros and cons of many possible changes and finally came up with the following:.

    Mon: 6 Easy (8:15)

    Tue: 7 Tempo (7:05)

    Wed: 13 Easy (8:15)

    Thu: 7 Quality (tempo, hill repeats, 1600m int or 800m int; see below)

    Fri: 6 Easy (8:15)

    Sat: 12 Marathon Pace (7:25)

    Sun: 18-24 Long (7:50)

    The Thursday quality workout varies depending on how many weeks remain to the race (May 1st). It begins as a second weekly tempo run (7:05). At 13 weeks it switchs to hill repeats (pace varies), at 8 weeks to long intervals (1600m @ 6:45), and at 4 weeks to short intervals (800m @ 6:30).

    The Sunday long run varies from 18-24 miles (2 workouts at each distance in 2 mile increments). I alternate long run weeks of 18-24 miles with cut-back weeks with long runs of 16 miles. In the next 4 weeks I run 16 mile long runs as I rebuild to pre race mileage levels (all workouts until Dec 20’th are aerobic/steady pace runs).

    On the Saturday MP the milage actually done at marathon pace varies depending on how long that weeks long run will be. On cut-back weeks about 8 miles of the 12 are at MP but on weeks when its longer the MP portion is greatly reduced.

    During cutback weeks if the quality workout that week is either hill repeats or intervals (long or short) the Tuesday tempo run is replaced with a second workout of that same type.

    The average milage works out to 70 mpw. The lowest mileage from now until the race is 67 and the peak weeks will be 75. This represents only a modest 5 miles a week increase compared to the past 6 months.

    More dramatically I have lowered the training pace across the board by about 15 seconds a mile.

    I feel I can handle the increase in mileage but am less certain if I can manage the new pace. If I begin to struggle I may have to moderate my goal for the spring. I have decided to train for a sub 3:15 which is a big leap from my current 3:29 best. If the training proves too much at this point I will return to the sub 3:20 goal.

    Training along these lines worked to get me to under 3:30 in less than 3 years of running. I feel only subtle changes, with a small increase in milage (I feel 80 miles a week is about my limit, both physically and in available time), along with a more aggressive change in pace will work best.

    I think I can tolerate the pace based on how I felt in the last 2 marathons (I had negative splits in both races and little or no soreness afterwards). I suspect I could have run one or both of races at a faster pace (if I was less focused on the BQ and without the injury this fall).

    I plan to work hard this winter and really put it all on the line next spring. Last year I ran both marathons in about 3:37, this year ran both in about 3:29. If the pattern continues I should have a shot at the 3:20 goal; if not the 3:15.

    Anyone see any huge holes in this plan? Or subtle issues I should address?

    For what its worth: I am a ‘compulsive’ person. My greatest training asset, and probably the biggest reason I have progressed quickly, is consistancy in training. I almost NEVER miss a workout. In the past 3 years I took only 3-4 days off a year (and those days were often marathon travel days).

    Once I establish a schedule I stick to it. I don’t care if the weather is bad, or what happens in my life to side track me, I manage to do every workout.

    I’ve had late nights at work and come home to run after midnight. Once when I had to babysit over the weekend I did a 24 mile run on the treadmill! You think the marathon is tough; try running on a dreadmill for well over 3 hours (my kids were the support crew and brought water and oreo cookies to me as needed).

    Randy

  • #16795

    r-at-work
    Member

    when you said ‘babysit’ I thought you meant take care of someone elses kids… isn’t taking care of your own kids called parenting…

    sorry, my pet peeve… I am very impressed with your schedule and even more so with you mind set… I will be trying to up my mileage this cycle… winter has never been easy for me… the first marathon I trained for I also did lots of runs on a teadmill as I was a single mother at the time.. watched a LOT of cartoons… luckily my kids are older now and the younger one (12) bikes on my long runs and carries my water…

    back to the schedule… when I started with a coach this last cycle they cut back my mileage for the first three weeks while I upped my pace, then added back mileage till I was where I had been before… now that I’m coming into a new cycle they said I could add a few more EASY miles one day a week (on Wednesday, where you have your medum run) and see if I can still get in my Thursday tempo run without losing the quality I’ve built up or getting injured…

    I guess what I’m trying to express is what they told me… compare what worked (improvement but no injuries) last time with what you plan on doing this time and only tweak one thing at a time… three weeks seems to be enough time to adapt… you’re VERY lucky that cut-back weeks seem to be sufficient to stay injury free… I’m afraid I need regular days off…

    I’m sure there are others on this site that can give you a better idea if this level of work will get you to your goal… the other thing that made me chuckle was you saying you’re compulsive… gee, marathon runner, compulsive…. you think? isn’t that a prerequisite… I also like you flexible goal idea, I needed that this year.. you see I’m not only compulsive, I’m obsessive…

    I’m looking forward to reading other thoughts…

    -Rita

  • #16895

    r-at-work
    Member

    when you said ‘babysit’ I thought you meant take care of someone elses kids… isn’t taking care of your own kids called parenting…

    sorry, my pet peeve… I am very impressed with your schedule and even more so with you mind set… I will be trying to up my mileage this cycle… winter has never been easy for me… the first marathon I trained for I also did lots of runs on a teadmill as I was a single mother at the time.. watched a LOT of cartoons… luckily my kids are older now and the younger one (12) bikes on my long runs and carries my water…

    back to the schedule… when I started with a coach this last cycle they cut back my mileage for the first three weeks while I upped my pace, then added back mileage till I was where I had been before… now that I’m coming into a new cycle they said I could add a few more EASY miles one day a week (on Wednesday, where you have your medum run) and see if I can still get in my Thursday tempo run without losing the quality I’ve built up or getting injured…

    I guess what I’m trying to express is what they told me… compare what worked (improvement but no injuries) last time with what you plan on doing this time and only tweak one thing at a time… three weeks seems to be enough time to adapt… you’re VERY lucky that cut-back weeks seem to be sufficient to stay injury free… I’m afraid I need regular days off…

    I’m sure there are others on this site that can give you a better idea if this level of work will get you to your goal… the other thing that made me chuckle was you saying you’re compulsive… gee, marathon runner, compulsive…. you think? isn’t that a prerequisite… I also like you flexible goal idea, I needed that this year.. you see I’m not only compulsive, I’m obsessive…

    I’m looking forward to reading other thoughts…

    -Rita

  • #16896

    Zeke
    Member

    Mon: 6 Easy (8:15)

    Tue: 7 Tempo (7:05)

    Wed: 13 Easy (8:15)

    Thu: 7 Quality (tempo, hill repeats, 1600m int or 800m int; see below)

    Fri: 6 Easy (8:15)

    Sat: 12 Marathon Pace (7:25)

    Sun: 18-24 Long (7:50)

    Is this what you’re planning on doing between now and May 1st? If so I think 3 workouts and 1 long run are too much this far out.

    The average milage works out to 70 mpw. The lowest mileage from now until the race is 67 and the peak weeks will be 75. This represents only a modest 5 miles a week increase compared to the past 6 months.

    More dramatically I have lowered the training pace across the board by about 15 seconds a mile.

    I feel I can handle the increase in mileage but am less certain if I can manage the new pace.

    Personally, I think successful marathoning is about getting your mileage up, not dropping your training paces. Therefore, I’d say focus on bumping your miles more than just the modest 5 mpw you have penciled in. And don’t worry about dropping your pace.

    What’s the point in running 7:45s if you feel like shit, just so you can say you dropped your training pace 15 seconds per mile? Besides if you’re running your easy days 15 seconds per mile faster, at some point they’re not easy days anymore. If you drop your speed workouts 15 seconds per mile, are you still training your correct “system?”

    I feel 80 miles a week is about my limit, both physically and in available time.

    If you think can handle 80 mpw, go for it. Try staying at 80 mpw thru the winter with maybe a tempo run and some strides thrown in once a week. As spring approaches and you’re about 12 weeks out, start adding more of the workouts you listed above.

  • #16796

    Zeke
    Member

    Mon: 6 Easy (8:15)

    Tue: 7 Tempo (7:05)

    Wed: 13 Easy (8:15)

    Thu: 7 Quality (tempo, hill repeats, 1600m int or 800m int; see below)

    Fri: 6 Easy (8:15)

    Sat: 12 Marathon Pace (7:25)

    Sun: 18-24 Long (7:50)

    Is this what you’re planning on doing between now and May 1st? If so I think 3 workouts and 1 long run are too much this far out.

    The average milage works out to 70 mpw. The lowest mileage from now until the race is 67 and the peak weeks will be 75. This represents only a modest 5 miles a week increase compared to the past 6 months.

    More dramatically I have lowered the training pace across the board by about 15 seconds a mile.

    I feel I can handle the increase in mileage but am less certain if I can manage the new pace.

    Personally, I think successful marathoning is about getting your mileage up, not dropping your training paces. Therefore, I’d say focus on bumping your miles more than just the modest 5 mpw you have penciled in. And don’t worry about dropping your pace.

    What’s the point in running 7:45s if you feel like shit, just so you can say you dropped your training pace 15 seconds per mile? Besides if you’re running your easy days 15 seconds per mile faster, at some point they’re not easy days anymore. If you drop your speed workouts 15 seconds per mile, are you still training your correct “system?”

    I feel 80 miles a week is about my limit, both physically and in available time.

    If you think can handle 80 mpw, go for it. Try staying at 80 mpw thru the winter with maybe a tempo run and some strides thrown in once a week. As spring approaches and you’re about 12 weeks out, start adding more of the workouts you listed above.

  • #16897

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    OK, here’s the thing. As you get faster, you are going to need to improve your training more in order to get the same kind of improvements. While this plan you are using worked for getting you to 3:30, you may have to consider more drastic changes to get to 3:15-3:20 and beyond.

    Personally, I’m still uncomfortable with your training. While it shows signs of periodization, it’s not really there. I know I sound like a broken record with periodization but that’s because it works. Where is the focus on base? Where is the time where weekly mileage is a secondary concern to getting in the workouts? Why are there prescribed paces for every single run and why don’t the prescribed paces change as your fitness improves? Why is your total weekly mileage variation only 8 miles?

  • #16797

    Ryan
    Keymaster

    OK, here’s the thing. As you get faster, you are going to need to improve your training more in order to get the same kind of improvements. While this plan you are using worked for getting you to 3:30, you may have to consider more drastic changes to get to 3:15-3:20 and beyond.

    Personally, I’m still uncomfortable with your training. While it shows signs of periodization, it’s not really there. I know I sound like a broken record with periodization but that’s because it works. Where is the focus on base? Where is the time where weekly mileage is a secondary concern to getting in the workouts? Why are there prescribed paces for every single run and why don’t the prescribed paces change as your fitness improves? Why is your total weekly mileage variation only 8 miles?

  • #16898

    SwampTiger
    Member

    I’m no expert and I don’t have as many races as you Randy, but I’ll share my experience as my time is near your goal. And I think my study of one supports what Zeke and Randy are saying. In my second marathon, Chicago 04, I ran a 3:13. Most of my training runs were slower than your plan.

    Easy – usually in the 8:15 to 8:45 range depending on how I felt and the weather, some pushing 8:00 when I felt good but also some pushing 9:00.

    Tempo – around 7:00 for the tempo portion with 2-3 miles of 8:00-8:30’s before and after. About the same pace as your plan unless you are doing the entire run at 7:05

    Pace – I only did two of these as the weekly long run, 15 with 3 easy and 12 at pace, and a 17 that I couldn’t maintain the pace because of the weather.

    Long Run – our biggest difference. I would start at about 9:00’s, spend a bunch of miles at about 8:30-8:45 and push to 8:00-8:15 the last few miles. Nearly all of the long runs averaged about 8:30.

    The other big difference is I did a much greater percentage of my miles easy. The first few weeks I did no speed work. The middle part had one tempo run a week and the end had one interval workout a week. Plus the two pace runs and a couple of races in the last few weeks.

    I’m not suggesting what I did will work for you. Everyone is different and you know how your body responds better than anyone else. As you suggest, the consistency is one of the most important components.

  • #16798

    SwampTiger
    Member

    I’m no expert and I don’t have as many races as you Randy, but I’ll share my experience as my time is near your goal. And I think my study of one supports what Zeke and Randy are saying. In my second marathon, Chicago 04, I ran a 3:13. Most of my training runs were slower than your plan.

    Easy – usually in the 8:15 to 8:45 range depending on how I felt and the weather, some pushing 8:00 when I felt good but also some pushing 9:00.

    Tempo – around 7:00 for the tempo portion with 2-3 miles of 8:00-8:30’s before and after. About the same pace as your plan unless you are doing the entire run at 7:05

    Pace – I only did two of these as the weekly long run, 15 with 3 easy and 12 at pace, and a 17 that I couldn’t maintain the pace because of the weather.

    Long Run – our biggest difference. I would start at about 9:00’s, spend a bunch of miles at about 8:30-8:45 and push to 8:00-8:15 the last few miles. Nearly all of the long runs averaged about 8:30.

    The other big difference is I did a much greater percentage of my miles easy. The first few weeks I did no speed work. The middle part had one tempo run a week and the end had one interval workout a week. Plus the two pace runs and a couple of races in the last few weeks.

    I’m not suggesting what I did will work for you. Everyone is different and you know how your body responds better than anyone else. As you suggest, the consistency is one of the most important components.

  • #16899

    Anonymous

    Randy, though I crashed at NYC and am gunshy about advice after the debacles of this fall, I think if you survive that program from now until May, you’ll break 3 hours or be close. Another words, for your stated goal your going too much, too fast, for too long. I even question if the 24 week Pfitz plan was too much for me, causing one of my worst times, but it’s all a gamble too. I had great Winter advice from an Ultra Legend.

    Mon 30 min or cross train.

    Tue 2 mi wup, 2 mi tempo , 2 mi cdn

    Wed 30 min easy

    Thu 8-10 easy

    Fri 30 min easy or cross train

    Sat 2 mi wup, 3-5 mi tempo closer to MP than 10k pace, 2 mi cdn

    Sun 14-18, or a race with no long run.

    Survive that, get to early mid Feb ready to crush a couple months and that’s my take on it.

    good luck, PSKI

  • #16799

    Anonymous

    Randy, though I crashed at NYC and am gunshy about advice after the debacles of this fall, I think if you survive that program from now until May, you’ll break 3 hours or be close. Another words, for your stated goal your going too much, too fast, for too long. I even question if the 24 week Pfitz plan was too much for me, causing one of my worst times, but it’s all a gamble too. I had great Winter advice from an Ultra Legend.

    Mon 30 min or cross train.

    Tue 2 mi wup, 2 mi tempo , 2 mi cdn

    Wed 30 min easy

    Thu 8-10 easy

    Fri 30 min easy or cross train

    Sat 2 mi wup, 3-5 mi tempo closer to MP than 10k pace, 2 mi cdn

    Sun 14-18, or a race with no long run.

    Survive that, get to early mid Feb ready to crush a couple months and that’s my take on it.

    good luck, PSKI

  • #16900

    tomo
    Member

    I wouldn’t like an mp run the day before a long run. That’s just me. I find mp runs and long runs to be more taxing than speedwork, and I’d be afraid I’d be too beat up from the mp run to run a decent long run the next day.

    Do you plan on racing at all leading up to the marathon? I think a few races might be beneficial, if only to guage your fitness.

    I agree with some other folks on here that there isn’t much variation in the schedule. Your greatest strength, as you say, might very well be with making a plan and sticking to it, but you might have to modify it if you are progressing better than you thought you would! (this is where a race or two might help).

  • #16800

    tomo
    Member

    I wouldn’t like an mp run the day before a long run. That’s just me. I find mp runs and long runs to be more taxing than speedwork, and I’d be afraid I’d be too beat up from the mp run to run a decent long run the next day.

    Do you plan on racing at all leading up to the marathon? I think a few races might be beneficial, if only to guage your fitness.

    I agree with some other folks on here that there isn’t much variation in the schedule. Your greatest strength, as you say, might very well be with making a plan and sticking to it, but you might have to modify it if you are progressing better than you thought you would! (this is where a race or two might help).

  • #16901

    I think this has been covered but consider training in cycles focusing on stressing different systems as you progress. Can’t say enough about establishing a base and then focusing on LT and speed. I agree with Zeek that 4 workouts a week is too much. If you run MP followed by a long run on Saturday and Sunday you should need at least 2 days of recovery. Otherwise, that Tuesday workout may not give you the desired result. Rest is critical.

    Also agree with Tomo, throw some races in there to see where you are. Instead of predermining your training paces now, use the races to estimate what your pace should be. Check out Ryan’s calculator, it helps.

    The thing I like is consistency. I agree with PSKI that if you can hold this, you’ll get where you want but there may be better ways to get there.

  • #16801

    I think this has been covered but consider training in cycles focusing on stressing different systems as you progress. Can’t say enough about establishing a base and then focusing on LT and speed. I agree with Zeek that 4 workouts a week is too much. If you run MP followed by a long run on Saturday and Sunday you should need at least 2 days of recovery. Otherwise, that Tuesday workout may not give you the desired result. Rest is critical.

    Also agree with Tomo, throw some races in there to see where you are. Instead of predermining your training paces now, use the races to estimate what your pace should be. Check out Ryan’s calculator, it helps.

    The thing I like is consistency. I agree with PSKI that if you can hold this, you’ll get where you want but there may be better ways to get there.

  • #16902

    Zeke
    Member
    pski p wrote:
    I think if you survive that program from now until May, you’ll break 3 hours or be close.

    I’ll disagree with this statement. I don’t see how adding 5 mpw (and dropping his pace by :15 seconds/mile) from his previous marathon build-up is going to allow him to drop nearly 1:00 per mile for 26 miles.

    I guess I could see some significant drop in time because Randy is relatively new to the sport and still improving. However, knocking 20-25 minutes off your marathon time usually requires shaking up ones training rather significantly.

  • #16802

    Zeke
    Member
    pski p wrote:
    I think if you survive that program from now until May, you’ll break 3 hours or be close.

    I’ll disagree with this statement. I don’t see how adding 5 mpw (and dropping his pace by :15 seconds/mile) from his previous marathon build-up is going to allow him to drop nearly 1:00 per mile for 26 miles.

    I guess I could see some significant drop in time because Randy is relatively new to the sport and still improving. However, knocking 20-25 minutes off your marathon time usually requires shaking up ones training rather significantly.

  • #16903

    randys
    Participant

    Thanks for the feedback.

    Regarding my expectations for the spring race: In a perfect race I might finish close to 3:15 but the odds are I’ll run around 3:20. As Zeke pointed out; the changes are only marginal; an additional 5 mpw and 15 sec/mile.

    My goals are long range. I don’t expect huge changes in PB’s. I am more than happy to improve by 5-10 minutes a year. I would be happy next year if I drop my 3:29 PB to 3:15-3:20 (less of a drop than it appears; without injury I feel I would have run 3:25 this fall).

    About the paces: I listed a pace based upon the pace that I ran the workouts over the past year; and how they changed over time.

    The 8:15 easy pace is not something I ‘target’ as much as the pace I expect to run those workouts at. A year ago I averaged 8:45-8:30 on easy runs, the last 6 months it was down to 8:30-8:15, so I ‘expect’ I will be around 8:15 or less over the next 6 months.

    My average pace has dropped about 10-15 min/mile every 6 months for the past 3 years. This is true across all the different workouts I do. And my weekly mileage has increased about 5 mpw every 6 months over that same time period.

    I had no trouble with this basic schedule in the past so I assume I can, especially over the cool winter months, run it again. The most significant change each cycle has been when I begin certain workouts and for how long the phase lasts. With each training cycle the hills and intervals start later and last fewer weeks. All the quality workouts are now done in the final 12 weeks (hills and both interval phases)

    Perhaps I do train closer to race pace than some recommend. That is a change in training I began a year ago and it has shown great results. It resulted in me running my last 2 marathons with negative (or even splits). In both races it was easy to achieve the negative split.

    In May I ran a 4:00 minute negative split, running easily at sub 7:45 min/mile over the last several miles. Last weekend I ran near perfect even splits. Even splits was my revised goal because of doubts from the injury and they felt easy to achieve.

    Prior to training this way I never could maintain my pace over the last 10k. I sometimes slowed by a min/mile or more near the finish.

    Training this way has changed my view of the race. I used to fear the last 10k; assuming I would, sooner or later, begin to slow. That no longer is the case.

    Randy

  • #16803

    randys
    Participant

    Thanks for the feedback.

    Regarding my expectations for the spring race: In a perfect race I might finish close to 3:15 but the odds are I’ll run around 3:20. As Zeke pointed out; the changes are only marginal; an additional 5 mpw and 15 sec/mile.

    My goals are long range. I don’t expect huge changes in PB’s. I am more than happy to improve by 5-10 minutes a year. I would be happy next year if I drop my 3:29 PB to 3:15-3:20 (less of a drop than it appears; without injury I feel I would have run 3:25 this fall).

    About the paces: I listed a pace based upon the pace that I ran the workouts over the past year; and how they changed over time.

    The 8:15 easy pace is not something I ‘target’ as much as the pace I expect to run those workouts at. A year ago I averaged 8:45-8:30 on easy runs, the last 6 months it was down to 8:30-8:15, so I ‘expect’ I will be around 8:15 or less over the next 6 months.

    My average pace has dropped about 10-15 min/mile every 6 months for the past 3 years. This is true across all the different workouts I do. And my weekly mileage has increased about 5 mpw every 6 months over that same time period.

    I had no trouble with this basic schedule in the past so I assume I can, especially over the cool winter months, run it again. The most significant change each cycle has been when I begin certain workouts and for how long the phase lasts. With each training cycle the hills and intervals start later and last fewer weeks. All the quality workouts are now done in the final 12 weeks (hills and both interval phases)

    Perhaps I do train closer to race pace than some recommend. That is a change in training I began a year ago and it has shown great results. It resulted in me running my last 2 marathons with negative (or even splits). In both races it was easy to achieve the negative split.

    In May I ran a 4:00 minute negative split, running easily at sub 7:45 min/mile over the last several miles. Last weekend I ran near perfect even splits. Even splits was my revised goal because of doubts from the injury and they felt easy to achieve.

    Prior to training this way I never could maintain my pace over the last 10k. I sometimes slowed by a min/mile or more near the finish.

    Training this way has changed my view of the race. I used to fear the last 10k; assuming I would, sooner or later, begin to slow. That no longer is the case.

    Randy

  • #16904

    Anonymous

    What are some of your other pr’s? How do they stack up against your projected marathon goal?

  • #16804

    Anonymous

    What are some of your other pr’s? How do they stack up against your projected marathon goal?

  • #16905

    Zeke
    Member
    RandyS wrote:
    Perhaps I do train closer to race pace than some recommend. That is a change in training I began a year ago and it has shown great results. It resulted in me running my last 2 marathons with negative (or even splits). In both races it was easy to achieve the negative split.

    How do you know that the faster training resulted in the negative splits and not something like the 65-70 mpw you were doing?

    Have you ever taken a plan from Pfitz, Daniels, Beck, Glover, etc. and followed that, rather than creating your own? With your mileage, it seems like one of Pfitz’s 70 mpw programs (18 or 24 weeks) would fit into your schedule.

  • #16805

    Zeke
    Member
    RandyS wrote:
    Perhaps I do train closer to race pace than some recommend. That is a change in training I began a year ago and it has shown great results. It resulted in me running my last 2 marathons with negative (or even splits). In both races it was easy to achieve the negative split.

    How do you know that the faster training resulted in the negative splits and not something like the 65-70 mpw you were doing?

    Have you ever taken a plan from Pfitz, Daniels, Beck, Glover, etc. and followed that, rather than creating your own? With your mileage, it seems like one of Pfitz’s 70 mpw programs (18 or 24 weeks) would fit into your schedule.

  • #16906

    Ryan
    Keymaster
    Zeke wrote:
    How do you know that the faster training resulted in the negative splits and not something like the 65-70 mpw you were doing?

    I was just going to ask if the improvements coincided with one of those mileage levels that seem to be a turning point for many runners like the 60-65 mpw range. It’s hard to pin improvements on one variable when multiple variables are involved and I have a bit of trouble believing the training pace and not a higher mileage level resulted in what is usually the result of a better base.

  • #16806

    Ryan
    Keymaster
    Zeke wrote:
    How do you know that the faster training resulted in the negative splits and not something like the 65-70 mpw you were doing?

    I was just going to ask if the improvements coincided with one of those mileage levels that seem to be a turning point for many runners like the 60-65 mpw range. It’s hard to pin improvements on one variable when multiple variables are involved and I have a bit of trouble believing the training pace and not a higher mileage level resulted in what is usually the result of a better base.

  • #16907

    randys
    Participant

    I began running stronger marathons after weekly mileage reached the 60’s. I agree it was a factor in my kast 2 races. Other factors that contributed was being in my 3rd year of running (longevity) and overall annual milage (3000+).

    My training paces are faster than before (relative to planned goal pace) but I don’t see them as being excessivly fast. My long run pace is still 25 seconds slower than planned race pace. In training it is maintained for 2-6 miles less than the race distance, and only over the final 1/2 to 1/4 of the run. Most of the early miles are done 35-45 seconds slower than goal pace.

    More than 45 sec/mile slower than MP feels uncomfortable to me. My stride feels ‘wrong’, my feet strike with a noticable ‘clomp’, and I develop pain in the shins that only goes away when I pick up the pace. I am a mid foot stiker normally but tend to heel strike at slower paces so this is part of the problem.

    If I was asked to rank the factors in order of importance I would not rank the change in training pace near the top. My list would be:

    1. Weekly/Annual Milage (sustained high mileage over a long period)

    2. Long Runs (frequent, year round, not only during marathon build up)

    3. Medium Long Runs (1 or 2 of these a week for endurance)

    4. Tempo Runs (push the lactate thershold to stay aerobic at faster pace)

    5. Faster LSD Pace (finish at or faster than MP, average pace closer to MP)

    6. Hills,Intervals (Probably responsible for less than 5 mins of race time)

    The only reason I stress item 5 is that the others would be on anyones list (perhaps arranged differently). But most advocate doing lsd’s slower, not faster, so it is the one element that goes against traditional advice.

    Randy

  • #16807

    randys
    Participant

    I began running stronger marathons after weekly mileage reached the 60’s. I agree it was a factor in my kast 2 races. Other factors that contributed was being in my 3rd year of running (longevity) and overall annual milage (3000+).

    My training paces are faster than before (relative to planned goal pace) but I don’t see them as being excessivly fast. My long run pace is still 25 seconds slower than planned race pace. In training it is maintained for 2-6 miles less than the race distance, and only over the final 1/2 to 1/4 of the run. Most of the early miles are done 35-45 seconds slower than goal pace.

    More than 45 sec/mile slower than MP feels uncomfortable to me. My stride feels ‘wrong’, my feet strike with a noticable ‘clomp’, and I develop pain in the shins that only goes away when I pick up the pace. I am a mid foot stiker normally but tend to heel strike at slower paces so this is part of the problem.

    If I was asked to rank the factors in order of importance I would not rank the change in training pace near the top. My list would be:

    1. Weekly/Annual Milage (sustained high mileage over a long period)

    2. Long Runs (frequent, year round, not only during marathon build up)

    3. Medium Long Runs (1 or 2 of these a week for endurance)

    4. Tempo Runs (push the lactate thershold to stay aerobic at faster pace)

    5. Faster LSD Pace (finish at or faster than MP, average pace closer to MP)

    6. Hills,Intervals (Probably responsible for less than 5 mins of race time)

    The only reason I stress item 5 is that the others would be on anyones list (perhaps arranged differently). But most advocate doing lsd’s slower, not faster, so it is the one element that goes against traditional advice.

    Randy

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